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Re: But they're the same ship…
By:Ragashingo
Date: 9/17/13 6:47 pm
In Response To: Re: But they're the same ship… (Stephen L. (SoundEffect))

: I do understand that, but since I dive deeper into details, I guess I see
: more of the discrepancies.

: People often forgive it in science fiction (bafflingly to me) but think of it
: this way: It would be like watching an episode of the Dukes of Hazzard.
: The General Lee is a 1969 Dodge Charger. Orange, with a confederate flag
: on the roof and 01 on the doors. You watch a season of the show go by.
: Then they do a movie, say 10 years later.

: In the movie, it fictionally takes place a single day after the last episode
: (despite the 10 years gap in real life). But now they're using a more
: modern Charger. It's still orange but not quite the same shade. The flag
: is still there but the font changed for the 01 which is actually now 10.

I think science fiction is easier to forgive because a lot of it isn't real. The General Lee was a real car and it is trivial to point out the difference. The Pillar of Autumn isn't real, and there is no singular good reference to base its stats off of. Do we go with The Fall of Reach which was very quickly written, and includes many facts that are either highly questionable or completely retconed by later Halo truths. Do we go with internal observations taken from Halo CE? From Halo Anniversary? From the descriptions in The Flood? For external observations you have three games to contend with plus the various books. The General Lee is The General Lee, but the Pillar of Autumn has no such solidity to it.

: Is this acceptable? Is it really just about the story? Should what's been
: established to be preserved to help maintain the fiction?

Yes, but unfortunately it wasn't. I'd love it if Halo had 100% complete consistency but it doesn't, and never really did. Because there are so many contradictory versions of the Pillar of Autumn (or most any Halo object really) I can't see the logic in trying to classify them using anything but the most major and deliberate visual changes. Is the Halo CE Ghost, which has no ground effects, a different vehicle using a different antigravity engine than every other Ghost in the series? I'd say absolutely not. The intent of the story and fictional logic of the Halo universe tells us that the Ghost design in Halo CE is likely meant to be the same type of vehicle seen in Halo 4, for instance, despite any other visual differences there might be between them. The same would apply to the Pillar of Autumn. It is, in all cases, a Halcyon class cruiser, despite the the addition of gun turrets, engines, and whatever else.

On the other hand I would be much more willing to accept that the larger variations in the Banshee denotes different models or production runs or whatever. In my mind there are two or three models of atmospheric Banshee, and then the sealed, space capable model seen during the space battles of Reach. I accept it because in my mind the changes are more deliberate, and because Banshees are generic vehicles rather than specific, named objects with well known histories like the Autumn.

Then on the far end of the spectrum we have the changes made to the Forward Unto Dawn. Yes, it's a named object with an important history, but the changes are much much more intentional between variants. Is it still the same ship? Story wise I begrudgingly say yes, but only under protest, and only because our hero characters are on it and refer to it by name. If we somehow came across the FUD's wreck in the course of Halo 4 instead of starting on it I would likely be looking to conspiracy theories or time travel or evidence of alternate universes. Not so with the Autumn which still has the same general shape and feel. It probably also helps a bit that the Halo CE Autumn and the Reach Autumn are separated by nine or so years of advancing graphical technologies, so any changes are more easily written off as added detail or the result of more rendering resources.

In the end I think classifying The Autumns as different ship classes does more to add confusion that it does to correctly label the ship and its origins. An official guide should do the best it can with the information it has to work with, and all the relevant information suggests that there was no intent to portray the Autumn as a new type of ship between the CE and Reach versions.

P.S. I hope that all makes sense. I was a bit time limited in writing this and had to cut out any potential editing / logic passes. Also, I want to point out that I love the work that you and the other hyperobservant people do. I in no way mean to take away from that work, I think we might just have a difference of opinions on how those keen observations should be applied.


Messages In This Thread

Story info in H4 Essential Visual Guidezofinda9/15/13 10:53 am
     Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual GuideDEEP NNN9/15/13 11:47 am
           Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual GuideStephen L. (SoundEffect)9/15/13 2:32 pm
                 Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual GuideDEEP NNN9/15/13 3:50 pm
     Autumn-class cruiser?Grizzlei9/15/13 11:51 am
           Re: Autumn-class cruiser?zofinda9/15/13 12:24 pm
     Cool! *NM*Revenant19889/15/13 12:03 pm
     Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual GuideCINCLesotho9/15/13 12:07 pm
           Loftus, paging Dr.Loftus *NM*Revenant19889/15/13 1:31 pm
                 Re: Loftus, paging Dr.LoftusStephen L. (SoundEffect)9/15/13 2:34 pm
           I'm confused...Leviathan9/15/13 5:43 pm
                 Re: I'm confused...Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/15/13 5:59 pm
                       Re: I'm confused...CINCLesotho9/15/13 7:00 pm
                             Re: I'm confused...Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/15/13 7:55 pm
                             Re: I'm confused...Leviathan9/15/13 8:09 pm
                                   Re: I'm confused...CINCLesotho9/15/13 10:03 pm
     Wait...ZackDark9/15/13 1:41 pm
           Re: Wait...Quirel9/15/13 3:56 pm
                 Re: Wait...ZackDark9/15/13 4:40 pm
                       Re: Wait...Quirel9/16/13 12:13 pm
                             Re: Wait...ZackDark9/16/13 8:00 pm
                                   Re: Wait...Quirel9/16/13 9:45 pm
                                         Oh, I see. Agreed and agreed, mate. *NM*ZackDark9/16/13 10:38 pm
                                         So does this mean...gamerguy20029/16/13 10:41 pm
     Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual GuideTDSpiral9/15/13 4:33 pm
           Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual GuideStephen L. (SoundEffect)9/15/13 4:44 pm
           Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual Guidescarab9/15/13 6:44 pm
                 Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual GuideQuirel9/15/13 7:21 pm
                       Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual Guidebryan newman9/16/13 12:38 am
                       Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual Guidescarab9/16/13 2:35 am
                             Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual GuideLeviathan9/16/13 2:53 am
                                   Oh You!scarab9/16/13 3:41 am
                                         Re: You rang? *IMG*Hyokin9/17/13 10:40 am
                                               Re: You rang? *IMG*ZackDark9/17/13 11:56 am
                                               I was looking for thatscarab9/17/13 12:30 pm
                                                     Quick jaunt to DBO: is that you?scarab9/17/13 12:33 pm
                                                           Yes. To both questions. ::evil face:: *NM*ZackDark9/17/13 2:52 pm
                                                           Re: Yes, it's me.Hyokin9/17/13 3:12 pm
                 Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual GuideTDSpiral9/15/13 8:04 pm
                       Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual GuideGrizzlei9/15/13 8:08 pm
                             Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-ReptilesZohak9/16/13 2:43 am
                                   Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-Reptilesscarab9/16/13 5:25 am
                                         Ooooh, but what if they did?ZackDark9/16/13 9:48 am
                                               I'd rather be a Dinosaur than a Forerunnerscarab9/16/13 12:40 pm
                                         Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-ReptilesDervish9/16/13 12:22 pm
                                               Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-ReptilesQuirel9/16/13 12:30 pm
                                                     Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-ReptilesDervish9/16/13 12:48 pm
                                                           Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-Reptilesscarab9/16/13 12:54 pm
                                                                 Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-ReptilesDervish9/16/13 1:02 pm
                                               Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-Reptilesscarab9/16/13 12:49 pm
                                                     Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-ReptilesDervish9/16/13 1:12 pm
                                         Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-ReptilesQuirel9/16/13 12:24 pm
                                               Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-Reptilesscarab9/16/13 12:37 pm
                                                     Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-ReptilesQuirel9/16/13 12:49 pm
                                                           Re:Kig yar could be like Sauropsid Or Ml-Reptilesscarab9/16/13 1:03 pm
                                         More on evolution and comparative anatomy.Gravemind9/16/13 5:14 pm
                                               Re: More on evolution and comparative anatomy.Gravemind9/16/13 5:30 pm
                                               Re: More on evolution and comparative anatomy.Quirel9/16/13 8:58 pm
                                                     Re: More on evolution and comparative anatomy.Gravemind9/16/13 9:22 pm
                                               Minor correction and addition.Gravemind9/16/13 9:53 pm
     Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual Guideserpx9/15/13 4:41 pm
     Re: Story info in H4 Essential Visual GuideApollo9/16/13 3:35 am
     So I bought the book...Dervish9/16/13 3:22 pm
           Re: So I bought the book...Grizzlei9/16/13 6:16 pm
                 Re: So I bought the book...Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/16/13 8:14 pm
                       Re: So I bought the book...Grizzlei9/16/13 8:20 pm
                             Re: So I bought the book...Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/16/13 8:34 pm
                                   You're too humble *GIF*Grizzlei9/16/13 9:13 pm
                                         Re: You're too humble *GIF*Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/16/13 10:23 pm
                                               Re: You're too humble *GIF*Grizzlei9/16/13 10:43 pm
                                                     Re: You're too humble *GIF*Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/16/13 10:51 pm
                                                           Re: You're too humble *GIF*Grizzlei9/16/13 11:15 pm
                                                           But they're the same ship…Ragashingo9/16/13 11:38 pm
                                                                 Re: But they're the same ship…Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/17/13 6:46 am
                                                                       Re: But they're the same ship…Ragashingo9/17/13 8:33 am
                                                                             Re: But they're the same ship…Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/17/13 9:38 am
                                                                                   Re: But they're the same ship…Revenant19889/17/13 11:19 am
                                                                                         Re: But they're the same ship…Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/17/13 11:47 am
                                                                                               HBO: We never shaw Loftus' whole work :( *NM*ZackDark9/17/13 11:55 am
                                                                                                     Re: HBO: We never shaw Loftus' whole work :(Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/17/13 12:23 pm
                                                                                               Re: But they're the same ship…Revenant19889/17/13 12:27 pm
                                                                                                     Re: But they're the same ship…Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/17/13 12:56 pm
                                                                                                           Re: But they're the same ship…Revenant19889/17/13 1:09 pm
                                                                                                                 Re: But they're the same ship…Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/17/13 2:39 pm
                                                                                                     This is the bestest post ever...Grizzlei9/17/13 3:19 pm
                                                                                         It's funny...Leviathan9/17/13 1:32 pm
                                                                                               Re: It's funny...Ragashingo9/17/13 2:12 pm
                                                                                   Re: But they're the same ship…Ragashingo9/17/13 6:47 pm
                                                                                         Re: But they're the same ship…Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/17/13 9:30 pm
                                                                                               Fantastic work^Leviathan9/17/13 11:04 pm
                                                                                                     And my actual opinion on the subject.Leviathan9/17/13 11:10 pm
                                                                                                           Re: And my actual opinion on the subject.Ragashingo9/17/13 11:55 pm
                                                                                                     There has never been a post more worthy of a THIS *NM*ZackDark9/18/13 8:52 pm
                                                                                               Re: But they're the same ship…FyreWulff9/18/13 12:57 pm
                                                                                                     What?Leviathan9/18/13 3:14 pm
                                                                                                     Re: But they're the same ship…Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/18/13 5:06 pm
                                                                                               Those drawings are nice. ;) *NM*Ragashingo9/18/13 8:54 pm
                                                                                                     Re: Those drawings are nice. ;)Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/18/13 10:38 pm
                                                                                                           Re: Those drawings are nice. ;)serpx9/18/13 11:26 pm
                                                                                                           Re: Those drawings are nice. ;)Ragashingo9/19/13 12:55 am
                                                                                                                 Re: Those drawings are nice. ;)Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/19/13 3:09 pm
                                                                                                                       Re: Those drawings are nice. ;)Ragashingo9/19/13 4:27 pm
                                                                                                                             Re: Those drawings are nice. ;)Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/19/13 4:40 pm
                                                                                                                                   Re: Those drawings are nice. ;)Ragashingo9/19/13 5:49 pm
                                                                                                                                         Re: Those drawings are nice. ;)Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/19/13 5:57 pm
                                                                                                                       Wait...ZackDark9/19/13 9:16 pm
                                                                                                                             Re: Wait...Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/19/13 9:30 pm
                                                                                                                                   Re: Wait...ZackDark9/19/13 9:59 pm
                                                                                                                                         Re: Wait...Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/19/13 10:35 pm
                                                                                                                                               Re: Wait...ZackDark9/19/13 11:22 pm
                                                                                                                                                     Re: Wait...Stephen L. (SoundEffect)9/20/13 6:29 am
                                                                                                                                                           O.OZackDark9/20/13 10:34 am
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: O.OStephen L. (SoundEffect)9/20/13 2:07 pm
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: O.OStephen L. (SoundEffect)9/20/13 2:42 pm

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