: in a general and broad sense, the word Fallen deals with
: anything that is a part of the Fallen Lords' armies.
I disagree somewhat. An army tends to be named after, or simple called commonly, by the general who commands it. For example, "Caesar then flanked and engaged Vercingetorix." It's not actually Caesar alone, but he and his entire army versus Vercingetorix's entire army.
"Fallen" then refers to the generals, of which Balor is sometimes, though falsely, directly associated with. The Fallen Lords did not physically rip down every piece of the destroyed Muirthemne, but in fact the Thrall and other Dark minions did the job. Because the minions are under direct control of the Fallen, and they are truly extentions of the generals themselves, it is very easy to concider the full army of The Deceiver "The Deceiver."
Another example: "Soulblighter has been continuously engaging our rearguard for the last two days. Between this and the Watcher's many ambushes along the way, it seems as if the two Fallen are racing to see which can destroy us first." Soulblighter and The Watcher are not actually doing the fighting; their armies are. Yet, they do control these minions, and so they are conscidered extentions of the Fallen. See whay I'm saying?
: this quote above seems actually to back me up, because
: Balor bound each of the Six Fallen Lords to his will,
: the shades appear to be bound to the six Fallen Lords
: themselves, acting as channels of their power. in this
: quote "Fallen" is meant as the Six Fallen
: Lords themselves, as there is no solid evidence that
: Balor also bound the shades which were subordinate to
: specific Fallen Lords.
: Fallen in general, yup
: same
: and finally in the strictest sense of all, Fallen refers
: to 'only the Six Fallen Lords whose names are
: Soulblighter, Shiver, the Deceiver, the Watcher, and
: unknown other two'. in the sense described above,
: Fallen doesn't include anything other than the six
: Fallen Lords. not shades, not Balor, not thrall nor
: ghols etc, only the six.
: again, shades exist in a torturous, evil state of
: existence, which is, when you look at the big picture,
: handed out by the Fallen Lords. so by becoming a
: shade, the wizard endures the direct and indirect
: tortures which the Fallen put their way ("of the
: Fallen").
: first i think nothing undead is more powerful than a
: shade can be, due to the simple fact this hasn't been
: proven in game. if that is true, you can see why i
: cannot believe that soulblighter is un-something. his
: abilities tower above those of a shade's, in the same
: way Alric's do. and alric is alive. it just makes
: perfect sense to me to equate the power irregularity
: to the fact that he is either alive or in a unique
: limbo state which i proposed that no one on this forum
: is willing to take a second look at :(
I did, and it sounds reasonable, but we need to define what undeath is, much as to catagorize what unlife is.
: true there is no evidence. but remember this was
: "self-mutiliation", not the mutilation of
: the thing you are trying to reanimate. so if doesn't
: fit; soulblighter's process cannot be a necromantic
: ritual as it seems.
: but again, the mutilation of the self, not that of the
: 3rd party, plus the other sacrifices makes it
: different. besides, mutilation is *specifically* the
: removal of the heart and majority of the face, which
: is not evident at all in any other kind of
: un-creature. not alive, not dead, not un-something to
: me = something new and not explored before, something
: at least similar to a limbo-existence.
Mutilation is any cutting or anatomizing of the body, whether inflicted by the self or otherwise. Soulblighter chose his type of mutilation for any number of reasons, whether aesthetic or ritualistic.
: the leveler doesn't appear to seek specific sacrifices to
: his name, just death and general destruction. he
: trusts no one. and knowing that SB pledges his
: allegiance to the Leveler, it appears he sacrifices to
: another spirit, most possibly b'y'laggo (sp?). and
: that particular spirit doesn't have connections to
: undeath/unlife, which must mean something different.
: i dont remember saying about anything similar to the last
: sentence in your reply above, i have always thought
: the sacrifices were to a dark god (b'y'laggo probably)
: which validated his search for his twice-born state of
: being. therefore the removal of the heart and the face
: finally preserved him, leaving him frozen as he was,
: thus preserved in a limbo-like state.
: on this one, we just have to wait and see for MWA since
: it most likely will be solved. if GURPS *is* proven
: correct and ravanna does die, it still doesn't
: validate anything else said about her in GURPS.
: someone once proposed that Myth 3 will solve this
: question: Is she Ravanna, the loveless child of the
: unwed dawn, or Shiver, mother of plagues who first
: created the Wights
That was invented in GURPS. We don't know who actually created Wights.
: this question is asked assuming the statements in GURPS
: are true, but ravanna is light in mwa. she cannot be
: either of those, just a female light archmage. if
: ravanna was a normal light archmage in Myth 3 then
: most of the things said about shiver in GURPS must be
: wrong. especially the made-up-on-the-spot names like
: "loveless child of the unwed dawn" and
: "mother of plagues".
: good :D
: she wouldn't undergo the un- process willingly, knowing
: that she would become hideous. this would mean, that
: if she was undead, she would have had to have been
: killed before. but she wasn't killed in TFL because
: the Head didn't tell Rabican something, instead her
: spirit was casted upon the ether. when soulblighter
: brought her back using tramist's mirror, it does not
: appear to be any kind of necromantic magic, but
: something totally different with a different purpose.
: this is why her corpse remains don't slump to the
: floor when Myrdred kills her, rather all kinds of
: *other* magics fling upward then sink down, which is
: totally unlike any kind of un-something demise ever
: seen before. so in essence, rabican defeated her but
: did not kill her fully, when finally Myrdred did.
: not really. these people only know about recent things,
: not many unknown generations ago. washington wasn't
: that long ago, he is in Only the Relative past,
: because we personally are a few hundred years older.
: but hundreds of hundreds, and thousands! how can we
: expect Any Normal man in the Legion to know even their
: basic ancient history! these are shockingly uneducated
: people! they just know they have to fight to survive,
: and little else other than warped legends and campfire
: stories. think about it: the name Soulblighter was
: just a childhood legend.... Only Sixty Years Later!
: how can mazzarin be known to any normal person...
: hundreds of years later!
We know about Iulius Cæsar, now known as Julius Caesar. …or Cleopatra, Alexander the Great, King Arthur Pendragon, Henry VIII, Queen Elizabeth I, etcetera.
: the conversation happened because alric must have read
: that Mazzarin killed Sinis way back in the day. now
: the Sinis shade is here, and Alric is now Living a
: legend which he read about in a scholars dusty tome or
: scroll. Alric was Not present when Mazz killed Sinis
: because of the time differences. nor was he mazz. :)
: he just knew about that vague old story, like this:
: you read in a history book that Hitler killed himself.
: then he comes into the US right now, today with an
: army, and you say to him
: "hitler! i thought you died when you stuck i burning
: piece of steel in your brain!"
: therefore, alric read about it (being the educated man he
: was unlike everyone else) and then all of a sudden he
: is introduced to his shade-form, and remembers reading
: about his death when sinis was alive.
Did you forget Sinis' response?? "Indeed, Alric. I'll wage you thought you'd see the last of me." Alric was not alive before the end of the Wolf Age. Mazzarin died during the Wind Age. That's a pretty definitive answer there. Alric never could have seen Sinis before he died. Alric was obviously present to see Sinis die over 1,000 years ago, though we know that's not possible. The solution is that he is Mazzarin incarnate, as most archmage battles are one-on-one, and no one else seems implied or mentioned. The simplest explanation is that Alric is Mazzarin reborn.
: a very huge (the biggest error), ridiculously obvious
: mistake unlike any other in both the games :)
There are worse, including changing how Shades must be evil in life to accept Shadification, how the Wind Age was changed the Wolf Age, how Alric was supposed to die at the end. I'm sure Sili can think of any number of other things that were worse.
: the old avatara definition was simply "the
: Nine." which is true... BUT the Myth II
: definition only Expanded (not recanted) on the older
: definition by saying there were Avatars before the
: Nine, and that the Nine simply were the Last Avatara.
: so both definitions can be taken as 100% truth, just
: the first one has to be looked upon with a new
: perspective (god forbid) :D
What? I seem to recall that the Avatara are only The Nine, and the Nine only Avatara. (or maybe just a GURPS thing popping into my head) It's a shame, since if Avatara could be outside The Nine, maybe some could be evil, like Phelot, and be Shadified since only evil archmages can be made Shades…eh.
: so why not consider Both old And new Shade definitions to
: be truth? it is evident that Light Avatars can be
: reanimated as thrall are reanimated, and they must
: given a new mind to "fill in the blank" so
: that they can speak, think, etc. just like volunteer
: shades do. the fill in the blank mind must be
: influenced by whoever made that shade. thus the Body
: of Mazzarin became a shade when the Watcher reanimated
: it, gave it the shade powers it could handle, and
: created a dark magic to be inside the body. changing
: it's name would lessen the effect and memory of such a
: great victory.
There is also the possibility that Shades do not retain their full memories once made Shades. Their spirit may leave, as with all things that die, and be replaced by the archmage who created it with something else. What remained of the former person could be the evil, the good going off to recoaless. This would allow the good spirit to be totally mirrored well, actually…so Mazzarin's good spirit could have been flipped into evil, like with a mirror, and made into the spirit of Moagim Reborn. :-) Hehe.
: perhaps the bargain saves the Fallen Lord the trouble of
: having to fill in the blank mind so that it can be
: intelligent. what you're saying is that avatar corpses
: cannot be reanimated then. but they can be because it
: is said in TFL... and I am aware of the appearance of
: a difference in the old and new definitions, but they
: Both must be True because it is in the game! they have
: to be true because it wasn't omitted from TFL,
: therefore it is simply in-game canon, which should be
: undisputable in all senses.
Not really…typically, the following games are more and more canon, the game-makers constructing a more detailed and more accurate story. Anything we read from the previous which does not fit in with what we already know can be discounted as a mistake in the, pardon the expression, legends and lore of the Mythwolrd.
Then again, we might be able to simply choose which history we like better and go from there…stating so, of course.
: we just have to think of a way to comprehend Both as
: Truth (since they are both in the game they have to be
: true).
Not at all. Anything we don't like (that doesn't fit in), primarily from the previous games, can be ignored as mistakes in the lore of the Mythworld.
: remember when you said that since soulless are
: in MWA we have to think of a way for them to be there
: since in essence they really shouldn't? now let's
: think of a way to accept both canonicle definitions of
: shadehood in the same way I found a way to accept both
: canonical (old And new) definitions of avatara.
If you have anything plausible…though I think there are some important definitions that never were established, years ago, about the game and some of its concepts.
: the only way to accept both is this: A) shades can be
: reanimated from avatar corpses and given pseudo-minds
: by the Fallen who reanimated them, perhaps even the
: pseudo-mind is a part of the spirit of the Fallen who
: gives it (like stygian knights, who knows) and B)
: Shades can be made from the still living dark wizards
: who agree to it.
Oh wow…I've only been reading this as a type, and I didn't look ahead…we seem to think alike :-).
: if you can understand the way that i presented to accept
: both Avatara definitions you can certainly understand
: the way i presented to explain both shade definitions.
: how can we just throw out the old TFL definition like
: it was trash? and the fact that mazzarin is in the
: shade names string simply backs up the TFL definition
: like a brick wall.
That's pretty decent.
: i mean, who knows? maybe cormorant was once a light
: avatar that was killed and reanimated too.
Maybe…
: the pseudo-mind that has to be given to a renaimated
: avatar merely takes on the name of its previous owner;
: that would make 2 un-unit kinds who retain their
: names.
Yeah, whereas Thrall and other things of that nature are from unmarked graves, and would need no name…maybe Shades respond better to their names…though Phelot didn't do that very well for Shiver in the end. :-)
What's the other, offhand? I can't seem to remember (Germany haze).
: but just how relevant was mazz to the immediate TFL
: storyline, not just its past? besides, just because
: some shade shares the same name and body as a hero,
: doesn't mean he has to get an introduction or anything
: at all. the fact that he's there isn't even enough,
: who cares that you encounter the body of some long
: dead guy that did stuff you barely heard about?
Well maybe I don't think Myth is a very good story, Sili :-). I'm just kidding; I love the story, but it has lots of holes. This is one of them. We can't know yet.
: in the game, alric kills the shade, in life, alric would
: have raped that shade, but time and engine limitations
: and other things made them fight similarly in game
: battles.
I go with Sili on this one. The Fallen Lords have a kind of un-life/death about them, something which they conquered via spells against healing in Myth 2.
: i say that the immense abilities of the fallen is one of
: the reasons that they cannot be undead, because it has
: not been proven that any of them are unliving :)
Or Living…:-)
: just wanted to check and make sure i didn't leave any
: out.
: -Welly
