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Re: You need some perspective.
Date: 3/15/13 9:52 pm
In Response To: You need some perspective. (Louis Wu)

: I read this, and I can't reconcile the total assholish sentiment you've
: written here with the person I've met. You're better than this.

: They removed something you liked, and they didn't really explain why they did
: it. That's fact.

: You (and many other people) complained that it had been removed, and that
: they hadn't adequately EXPLAINED why it had been removed. That's fact.

The justification decides whether or not they deserve thanks, and as you've adequately pointed out, we have zero perspective for why 343 made the design decision in the first place. This has been a standard component for Halo and communication going on nearly a decade when they removed it. If, for some screwed up and unknown reason, this staple of gameplay (not just in the Halo series, but even in CoD) was implausible at launch, and is now fixed, well okay then, thank you very much 343 for fixing this.

With zero factual evidence to back this next part up beyond what they actually did with the game, the X's were seemingly put to use in the specialization of someone stalking down the person who just got done killing them. I'd call that a foolish design choice if that's the case, but again, I don't know. For all I know, because of that odd design decision, the coding somehow conflicted based on who killed you or who just died on your team. Maybe they needed to use a different symbol and never tried it. Maybe they couldn't! Again, I don't know. No one does. I don't see how they would deserve thanks for potentially fixing something that had no technical reason to be removed beyond a potentially foolish design choice.

: They go to the trouble of putting it back - and your attitude is "fuck
: 'em, they shouldn't have removed it in the first place."

: That's the sentiment of a grade-one asshole.

You're right, that was a grade-one asshole thing to say. I absolutely had no intent on taking the time to say why it's too little, too late, or why I still feel they don't deserve thanks. It has to do with a lot more than the "they shouldn't have removed it in the first place" part. They could have gone to the trouble to test the game more thoroughly (no idea how thoroughly they tested it, mind you). They could have put these resources into a public Beta. They could have done a number of things. What I'm saying is, they could have gone to the trouble before the game launched to release a product that wasn't so glaringly broken.

Should I go praise EA for fixing their servers on Sim City, too? Not at all. They screwed up, big time. They don't want to issue refunds, so they're going to try to make it right by giving people a free game. That's nice of them. They didn't have to do that. From a business and customer relations standpoint alone, they did need to fix their server issues and a lot of the other broken problems this game had (or they could just bleed customers, if they really wanted to). Should I praise EA for fixing their other broken and incomplete games after they released them to the public, using the public as Beta testers after the fact and expecting the consumer to be grateful that they put in the time to fix what was already broken and poorly or untested? No. Their games were broken. If they left it that way, people wouldn't play anymore. The same goes for Halo 4.

: Yeah, I get that you think it's too little, too late, and that the game still
: isn't fun for you. Those are completely different issues, though, from the
: decent way to respond when someone tries to do something you asked them to
: do.

This isn't about asking them to do something. The fact that they're fixing things and putting the X's back in is their acknowledgement that they did something wrong or that their game is not up to standards. They more or less released a defective product. Why would I thank them for putting back in a feature that had been standard in nearly all previous incarnations? If they figure out how to put back in holding the Back button while moving, should I thank them for that when it's been there for over a decade? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Why would they take out something that clearly was not a problem? Oh yeah, I'm glad they put it back in, but why would I thank them for putting back something they shouldn't have taken out in the first place? Mistakes happen, I get it, but this is only one of many that are still not yet resolved.

This is the difference between proper widespread customer service and the belief that we're owed something. I'm not owed a damn thing. They didn't have to correct this red X issue or any other issue in H4. But if an issue arises, usually the developer goes about trying to fix it. Servers crashed? Bring them back up. People cheating on your poorly tested maps by glitching through geometry or who knows what? You patch that stuff up. It's not because I asked. It's not because anyone asked. It's because it's broken or incomplete.

If you remove something from the game that's been in the game since 2004, one might wonder if it was some out of nowhere technical issue or because someone just screwed up and thought they had a good idea. Did they not test it? Did they not see how people communicated without the X's? Did they really never run into a problem before until the game went live and got sold and people collectively found out something was wrong? No explanations, not that we're owed one, but that doesn't mean they're owed thanks either. If they found some way to overcome some crazy programming error that didn't allow for this before, thanks. If they took it out on a whim, had backlash, and are fixing this now as a Band-Aid to stop the bleeding, well yay I guess but I don't see how that deserves praise.

: They allocated resources to fix whatever was broken enough to keep the X's
: from going in at launch - BECAUSE FANS ASKED THEM TO. Yes, that deserves
: thanks. Being polite when someone does something specifically at your
: request isn't 'Stockholm Syndrome', it's manners. Your momma raised you
: better than that. :(

Back to the "before the game launched" part, how many patches/TUs/whatever they're labeling them now have they released? How many broken and incomplete things? The mess with the specializations and the Crimson DLC? How many things have just been flat out broken? Whether it's 343 or EA, I don't appreciate spending money on a product that's incomplete and broken, only to be used as a Beta tester after I've already spent my money and time playing the broken product. From a business standpoint, why wouldn't they put in the time to fix this stuff? It's not about fans asking or demanding. Their product has been loaded with issues and they've already had to issue so many TUs and patches to fix them that it's pretty frustrating as both a consumer and someone who loves Halo.

Yes, these only make the game better going forward, which is absolutely only a good thing, and good for 343 taking the time to fix it, but don't act like this was a simple matter of, "Hey, 343, could you do this for us please? It's kind of frustrating" with them following with, "Well sure! We really like all of this stuff and had ideas, but because we love you, our fans, we will change it up for you a bit!" No. This wasn't about manners. You're absolutely right that people asked them to fix things, because things were broken. The X's weren't broken from a technical standpoint (that we know of), but had an absolutely negative impact on communication and teamwork. If you're running a business and something is broken, or if you messed up due to a poor design decision that's affecting your consumers, it doesn't take manners to tell you that you need to fix it, especially if you hope to keep customers and maintain excellent customer relations. This goes beyond the X's.

Sure, they didn't have to go out of their way or put in the time to fix this stuff, but if they're satisfied with a broken product and potentially bleeding their game's population, then that's their own risk. Clearly, they aren't fine with it, which is a good thing, but it would have been nice if the time and resources had been put in pre-launch instead of after the fact (not that I know how much time or effort they put into testing, but speaking of perspective and perceptions, well, it doesn't look like they put in anywhere near the resources they should have prior to launching this game).

You're right about how I was raised. I was taught that when I do something wrong, I should admit I did wrong and fix it. I might not be forgiven, and a lot of the time I don't deserve thanks. I do it because it's the right thing to do. I try my best to right my wrongs. 343 is clearly righting their wrongs, but that doesn't mean they're owed any praise for doing it. They're not doing us a favor out of the kindness of their hearts or because of good manners or because they were asked. Bungie didn't fix the busted melee system at the start of H3 because they were asked to or out of good manners. Stuff was broken and needed fixing, and it just so happened that people pointed it out to them (a lot of people, obviously). They're righting their wrongs because they messed up and it's the right thing to do. And yet, even with all these fixes, their game is still broken, and it's unbelievable to me that it got released to paying consumers in such a state.

Messages In This Thread

3-13-13 BulletinGrimBrother One3/14/13 1:12 am
     BIG news in this one. Red X's. *NM*uberfoop3/14/13 1:15 am
           Holy expletive, the game can be saved. *NM*Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316)3/14/13 2:15 am
           It's a miracle! *NM*Gravemind3/14/13 3:09 am
           I'm surprised this wasn't around to begin with *NM*TDSpiral3/14/13 4:05 am
           All Hail Bravo! *NM*zoojoo3/14/13 9:17 am
                 Why does Bravo get the thanks? *NM*UnrealCh13f3/14/13 4:00 pm
                       Nah I'm good Unreal *NM*Avateur3/14/13 8:38 pm
                             Re: Nah I'm good UnrealGeneral Vagueness3/15/13 12:14 am
                                   Re: Nah I'm good UnrealAvateur3/15/13 1:32 am
                                         You need some perspective.Louis Wu3/15/13 8:45 am
                                               Re: You need some perspective.Avateur3/15/13 9:52 pm
                                                     Re: You need some perspective.Louis Wu3/16/13 11:31 am
                                                           Re: You need some perspective.Avateur3/16/13 2:38 pm
                                                     Re: You need some perspective.General Vagueness3/16/13 5:49 pm
                                                           Re: You need some perspective.Avateur3/16/13 7:02 pm
                                                                 ^Derailing This^gamerguy20023/16/13 7:51 pm
                                                                       Re: ^Derailing This^General Vagueness3/17/13 1:06 pm
                                                                       Re: ^Derailing This^Cody Miller3/19/13 12:02 pm
                                                                             Re: ^Derailing This^gamerguy20023/20/13 8:38 am
                                                                                   Re: ^Derailing This^Louis Wu3/20/13 9:12 am
                                                                                         Re: ^Derailing This^gamerguy20023/20/13 11:23 am
                                                                                               Re: ^Derailing This^Louis Wu3/20/13 12:01 pm
                                                                                                     Gonna have to agree here.UnrealCh13f3/20/13 2:54 pm
                                                                                                     Re: ^Derailing This^gamerguy20023/20/13 11:00 pm
                                                                                                           Re: ^Derailing This^Louis Wu3/20/13 11:24 pm
                                                                                                                 Re: ^Derailing This^gamerguy20023/21/13 12:24 am
                                                                                                                       Re: ^Derailing This^Louis Wu3/21/13 12:36 am
                                                                                                                             Re: ^Derailing This^gamerguy20023/21/13 12:50 am
                                                                                                                                   I'm not sure how that was misleadingUnrealCh13f3/21/13 2:06 am
                                                                 Re: You need some perspective.Gravemind3/16/13 9:34 pm
                                                                       Re: You need some perspective.gamerguy20023/17/13 12:14 am
                                                                             Re: You need some perspective.Gravemind3/17/13 1:48 am
                                                                       Re: You need some perspective.Guttsu3/19/13 3:43 pm
                                                                             Re: You need some perspective.Monochron3/20/13 1:44 pm
                                                                 Re: You need some perspective.General Vagueness3/17/13 12:02 pm
                                                                 Let's try this one more time.Louis Wu3/17/13 1:09 pm
                                                                       Re: Let's try this one more time.Avateur3/17/13 10:02 pm
                                                                             My two centsDHalo3/18/13 12:18 am
                                                                             Re: Let's try this one more time.General Vagueness3/18/13 6:20 pm
                                                                                   Re: Let's try this one more time.Avateur3/18/13 9:04 pm
                                                                                         Re: Let's try this one more time.Louis Wu3/19/13 9:06 am
                                                                 Re: You need some perspective.thebruce03/18/13 9:58 am
                                                                       Re: You need some perspective.DHalo3/18/13 11:10 am
                                                                             Re: You need some perspective.thebruce03/18/13 6:21 pm
                                                                                   Re: You need some perspective.DHalo3/18/13 7:36 pm
                                                                                         Re: You need some perspective.Avateur3/18/13 9:15 pm
                                                                                         Re: You need some perspective.Monochron3/19/13 9:35 am
                                                                                               It's... different than Reach *NM*ZackDark3/19/13 11:46 am
                                                                                               Re: You need some perspective.Quirel3/19/13 2:02 pm
                                                                                                     Re: You need some perspective.Monochron3/20/13 2:30 pm
                                                                                                           Re: You need some perspective.Quirel3/20/13 6:28 pm
                                                                                                                 Re: You need some perspective.Monochron3/21/13 2:06 pm
                                                                                                                       Re: You need some perspective.Avateur3/21/13 9:45 pm
                                                                                                                             Re: You need some perspective.Monochron3/22/13 4:07 pm
                                                                                                                                   Re: You need some perspective.Avateur3/22/13 10:07 pm
                                                                                               Re: You need some perspective.UnrealCh13f3/19/13 2:39 pm
                                                                                               Re: You need some perspective.Gravemind3/19/13 4:17 pm
                                                                                                     Re: You need some perspective.Monochron3/20/13 2:25 pm
                                                                                                           Re: You need some perspective.Gravemind3/20/13 8:28 pm
                                                                                                                 Re: You need some perspective.Monochron3/21/13 2:54 pm
                                                                                                                       Re: You need some perspective.Gravemind3/21/13 4:40 pm
                                                                                                                             Re: You need some perspective.Monochron3/21/13 5:26 pm
                                                                                                                                   Re: You need some perspective.Louis Wu3/21/13 5:43 pm
                                                                                                                                         Re: You need some perspective.Monochron3/21/13 6:24 pm
                                                                                                                                   Re: You need some perspective.MacGyver103/21/13 6:00 pm
                                                                                               Reach *was* better than H4tb25719893/20/13 5:19 am
                                         Re: Nah I'm good UnrealGeneral Vagueness3/15/13 7:38 pm
                                               Re: Nah I'm good UnrealGrimBrother One3/16/13 1:18 am
                                                     Re: Nah I'm good UnrealGeneral Vagueness3/16/13 5:36 pm
                       Just pinning a face on it, buddy. *NM*zoojoo3/15/13 12:35 am
     Re: 3-13-13 Bulletingamerguy20023/14/13 11:43 am
     Re: 3-13-13 BulletinChrisTheeCrappy3/14/13 12:42 pm
           Re: 3-13-13 Bulletinpete_the_duck3/14/13 12:50 pm
                 Re: 3-13-13 BulletinChrisTheeCrappy3/14/13 2:23 pm
                       Re: 3-13-13 Bulletingamerguy20023/14/13 2:49 pm
                             Re: 3-13-13 Bulletinpete_the_duck3/14/13 4:06 pm
                                   Re: 3-13-13 BulletinGeneral Vagueness3/15/13 12:12 am
     Re: 3-13-13 BulletinMacGyver103/14/13 1:50 pm

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