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Re: Side thought (kinda OT)
Date: 2/4/14 7:17 pm
In Response To: Re: Side thought (kinda OT) (Quirel)

: Some of them could have, true. Though I wonder how you can discern things
: like force of personality and charisma from a person's DNA. Would Soren
: and Osman have climbed out of the crappy foster care system they were
: found in?

I see it as one of those things you just go along with. many SF stories postulate FTL and I just say, "OK". For the Spartan program I just accept that she can tell how awesome her Spartans will be just from their DNA (although there were also the supplemental tests done to evaluate the target children).

But if Halsey was sure that her Spartans were "one in a billion, Alexanders" then she sure found a good way to neuter them and ensure that their contributions to the war were kept to a minimum (win skirmishes on the ground until the Covies turn on their ventral beams and glass the ground).

: Then why did Parangosky have no knowledge of the clones?

ONI and Parangosky are not synonymous. People in ONI backed H's project. People in ONI knew about the clones.

: I get the feeling that writing Halsey was a chore for Traviss, though she
: loved writing characters reacting to Halsey.

I don't think she wanted to give Halsey a spirited defense of her actions or maybe it was just difficult for her to put herself in H's shoes. Maybe she does, genuinely, see H as a Mengle.

Nylund wrote H as having misgivings and regrets about what she had done so it's possible that she wouldn't fight accusations. That's possible but I suspect that Travis didn't want to live in H's head.

: The reason why I love Moral Dictata is because she finally comes out and
: admits that, yes, Halsey is a scapegoat. There's hundreds if not thousands
: of people who should have spoken up about the Spartan II project, and none
: of them did.

Admit? That's a strange word to use. She wasn't secretly making H a scapegoat. I don't think that Travis tried to hide it. She probably just realized, from fan feedback, that she hadn't made it obvious enough so she had a character say/think it.

After all, a scapegoat is something you use to cast YOUR guilt upon - then you punish the goat by sacrificing it. Travis had no guilt to offload - she never kidnapped children - she never invented a story were kiddies were kidnapped for the good of mankind (actually for propping up an incompetent government).

: I just wish that this had been the focus of Glasslands, not Moral Dictata. I
: agree that the Spartan II project was immoral, but the character
: assassination was obtuse.
: "Halsey only started the Spartan II program out of curiosity. She wanted
: to see what she could do." Traviss said.
: And the fans pointed out that, no, her journal laid out her reasons for what
: she was doing.
: "Oh, her journal isn't reliable," Traviss explained. "Halsey
: rewrites her own reality as she goes."
: And the fans said that characterization is incompatible with what we've seen
: of her.

Is it? Halsey did seem to be on a path of making her feel better about herself even to the point of kidnapping a couple of Spartans to save them.

: "Well, I never read the previous fiction because I can't remain
: objective."

More like - then I can't just reinvent things to fit the cool things I've thought of given the little I know about the existing story.

: Mission failed, Traviss. Mission already failed.

WTF is objectivity anyway. If you have an ax to grind then just make sure that you grind it well. :-)

: Moral Dictata also succeeds because it's a story about characters dealing
: with the ramifications of the Spartan II project. What came before felt
: like the message came first, story came second.

: And I loathe message fiction.

: Mendez is the weak link in your argument. His arguments were so asinine, he
: shouldn't have made them with a straight face. And if he did, Halsey
: should have rhetorically hammered him into the ground like a tent stake.

Could be that doing so would conflict with her constructed self image as a repentant. (Can that be a noun? It is now)

But, yes, I did want to slap Mendez with a wet fish. Something medium large - like a Pollock.

The trilogy was flawed but I did enjoy it. I was appalled when I read TFoR. It reminded me of E.E. "Doc" Smith or much of the Astounding Stories stuff. It was like, "WTF. The Chief was kidnapped as a kid?!?" It didn't sit right with me.

: But he did, and she didn't, because Traviss couldn't be bothered back then to
: properly research what the Spartan Project was all about.

What was it all about?

: Hmm... now, what would an outsider think of this? Wouldn't someone who was
: never involved with ONI, let alone the Spartan II project, see the
: hypocrisy for what it is?

Hypocrisy is always easier to spot in other people. The first person a liar lies to is himself.

: We have a character that serves the role of the neutral outsider. His name
: was Vaz Beloi, and he spent pages and pages of angsting about how a
: monster like Halsey could exist and how immoral the Spartan II project
: was. But he never makes the leap to the conclusion that, you know, maybe
: his new employer* is a soul-sucking monstrosity.

He skirted around it. The fact that he skirted around it is not a flaw in Travis' writing. She is showing how people can skirt around awkward issues and how we can clearly see the mote in someone else's eye.

: *ONI, not just Parangosky or Osman

ONI is unhealthy - for everyone.

: Oh, hell yes they are. It's only until Moral Dictata that they become
: something more.

Why do you say that?

: You don't dedicate two AA games and several comic book lines to a character
: the audience is supposed to hate. She's 343i's answer to Westley Crusher.

I know that the intent is that we should like her.

: I can see her as a decent antagonist.

The failure to make us like her gives them an opportunity for story telling goodness. Though I don't see her as a villain (she doesn't see herself as a baddy). But she is a bit of a dick and people can rub off her. And she's not necessarily always wrong just because she's a dick.

She's a good source of character conflict. The more goody-two-shoes characters have to stand in relation to her - her strong opinions force you to stand for your own point of view. And you're never sure how bad things will get when she's set on a course of action that you don't approve of.

And she has a friendship with Lasky and they respect each other so any disagreements are tempered by and have to respect that.

: If she has an epiphany, I hope it's sometime during the thirty seconds after
: she's thrown out the airlock without her helmet.

I don't know that I want her to have one. :-)

: She's not supposed to be a minor character, unless the Arbiter or Noble Team
: are considered minor characters.

Fair enough.

Messages In This Thread

Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Grizzlei1/24/14 4:20 am
     One more concern to note...Grizzlei1/24/14 4:24 am
           THISMid7night1/24/14 9:36 am
                 SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 7:50 pm
                       Eh sorry, that's "Late 2517 - Reach" *NM*Grizzlei1/25/14 7:53 pm
                       Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*DEEP NNN1/25/14 9:40 pm
                       Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Avateur1/25/14 9:57 pm
                             Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 10:20 pm
                                   Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*DEEP NNN1/25/14 10:48 pm
                                   Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Avateur1/25/14 11:19 pm
                                         Re: The SpartansRevenant19881/26/14 1:06 am
                                         Nitpicking...Arithmomaniac1/26/14 1:21 pm
                                               Re: Nitpicking...Avateur1/26/14 1:35 pm
                                   Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Revenant19881/26/14 12:46 am
                                         Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Grizzlei1/26/14 1:42 am
                                               Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Revenant19881/26/14 3:56 am
                                                     Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*DEEP NNN1/26/14 8:21 am
                                                     Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Grizzlei1/26/14 1:50 pm
                                                           Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Quirel1/26/14 2:39 pm
                                                                 Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Grizzlei1/26/14 4:13 pm
                                               Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Arithmomaniac1/26/14 12:37 pm
                                         Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*DEEP NNN1/26/14 8:17 am
                                         Chief wins alldavidfuchs1/27/14 11:22 am
                                               Re: Chief wins allRevenant19881/27/14 11:34 am
                                   Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Arithmomaniac1/26/14 1:06 pm
                                         Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Grizzlei1/26/14 1:33 pm
                       What's Jorge's deal?Dervish2/2/14 5:36 pm
     Side thought (kinda OT)padraig081/24/14 10:26 am
           Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Revenant19881/24/14 10:55 am
                 Re: Side thought (kinda OT)padraig081/24/14 11:06 am
                       Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Revenant19881/24/14 11:12 am
                             Re: Side thought (kinda OT)padraig081/24/14 11:15 am
                 Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Grizzlei1/24/14 4:19 pm
           Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Leviathan1/24/14 11:58 am
                 My thoughts to both Padraig and Levi actuallyMacGyver101/24/14 3:26 pm
                       Link for Epilogue Cutscene BTW: Jump to 2:35MacGyver101/24/14 3:29 pm
                       Re: My thoughts to both Padraig and Levi actuallypadraig081/24/14 3:45 pm
                             Re: My thoughts to both Padraig and Levi actuallyArithmomaniac1/26/14 1:12 pm
                                   Re: My thoughts to both Padraig and Levi actuallyGrizzlei1/26/14 4:54 pm
                       Re: My thoughts to both Padraig and Levi actuallyQuirel1/24/14 9:41 pm
                 The only thing I disagree with...Quirel1/24/14 10:03 pm
                       Re: The only thing I disagree with...Leviathan1/24/14 11:00 pm
           Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Grizzlei1/24/14 3:53 pm
                 Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Avateur1/24/14 5:57 pm
                       Re: Side thought (kinda OT)scarab2/2/14 5:05 pm
                             Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Quirel2/2/14 9:13 pm
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Avateur2/2/14 10:18 pm
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)davidfuchs2/2/14 11:09 pm
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)scarab2/4/14 7:17 pm
                                         Re: Side thought (kinda OT)rhubarb2/4/14 7:30 pm
                                               Re: Side thought (kinda OT)scarab2/5/14 12:39 pm
                                         Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Quirel2/5/14 12:39 am
                             Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Avateur2/2/14 10:16 pm
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Avateur2/2/14 10:19 pm
                                         Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Quirel2/2/14 10:36 pm
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Revenant19882/2/14 10:34 pm
                                         Spoil me rev, I want that knowledge in me now! *NM*padraig082/3/14 11:54 am
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)scarab2/5/14 1:02 pm
           I kinda want to play as a rogue Spartan/EliteFlynn J Taggart1/24/14 7:53 pm
                 Re: I kinda want to play as a rogue Spartan/Elitecrazedone19881/25/14 3:28 am
                       Re: I kinda want to play as a rogue Spartan/EliGrizzlei1/25/14 10:36 am
     Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*DHalo1/25/14 6:36 am
           Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 10:08 am
                 Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*DHalo1/25/14 10:59 am
                       Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 11:59 am
                             Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*DHalo1/25/14 1:47 pm
                                   Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 2:21 pm
           Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Avateur1/25/14 7:32 pm
                 Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 8:02 pm
     Simple solution to all of this controversy...Postmortem1/25/14 3:08 pm
           No.Grizzlei1/25/14 3:30 pm
                 Re: No.davidfuchs1/27/14 11:05 am
           Re: Simple solution to all of this controversy...Frankie1/27/14 2:13 pm
                 Re: Simple solution to all of this controversy...Quirel1/27/14 2:15 pm
                 Who is this strange person?Revenant19881/27/14 3:38 pm
                 See, this is what happensMacGyver101/27/14 3:52 pm
                       Re: See, this is what happensQuirel1/27/14 4:02 pm
                       Re: See, this is what happensmunky-0581/27/14 4:05 pm
                 Re: Simple solution to all of this controversy...DEEP NNN1/27/14 6:17 pm

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