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Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*
Date: 1/26/14 12:46 am
In Response To: Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP* (Grizzlei)

Well I just finished it, and I will say that I enjoyed it. It's a topic that needed to be explored but honestly is better being examined in the extended fiction that in the main games. I have a feeling that your average joe gamer wouldn't really get into this story arc, but I can honestly say that, for me, (even if I didn't KNOW Halo and was just reading this because I like reading) it was thought provoking.

Things I didn't like:

*Traviss using BB has her soapbox.

*The overusing of the word and term "Bloke" (goddamn, sweet heart, I know you live in England now but you've got characters saying that aren't even English and I counted it used 4 times on one page alone)

*Traviss actually flat out saying Halsey = Hitler. Halsey was not Hitler. Halsey did terrible things. She did not however lead a genocidal campaign against half her own species. Thank you.

*That for some reason, I kept imaging Sometimes Sinks as an engineer version of GV

: I would have hoped that Halsey isn't supposed to tell them anything. Because
: they're six year old children and have no business in combat boots.

I don't recall that part in the book saying that Halsey said that to ALL the children, just that she said that SPECIFICALLY to Naomi. That's very important. Remember, she would NOT have said the same thing to Serin, because it did not apply to her.

To me it implied that Halsey simply said what fit each child on an individual level to help them better acclimate to the training and let go of the pasts that would hold them back.

: Y'know, I'm kinda irritated by this rationale that the Spartans were
: justified because the Covenant came. If Spartans were bred to stop a
: genocidal foe, I would perhaps accept such justification on the principal
: of saving humanity. But they weren't. The Spartans are humanity's
: deadliest weapons yet.

This is also covered a couple of times. Naomi even flat out says at one point that had they been abducted BECAUSE of the Covenant she would have volunteered.

We see this EXACT thing happen with the Spartan III candidates, remember? They had a choice in becoming Spartans. The SIII candidates were mostly kids who were already victims of the Covenant, who lost their families and had no where else to go. That still doesn't make it much better though, because Ackerson preyed on them specifically due to their circumstance. He knew they'd want vengeance despite the physical and mental consequences it would give them. (Remember, the SIII's are cheaper and inferior to the SII's)

Avateur has a good point, and that point is made in the book. [Yeah, the Spartan program originated to keep Humanity from collapsing on itself, but had that not been put into motion they would not have had the ace in the hole that Humanity needed against the Covenant, when it attacked. OR did it even matter?**] Traviss and the characters she is speaking through admit that, but her\their whole point is that it still doesn't make it right.

They are correct. Halsey is correct. It is a perfect catch 22. A case of having the cake and eating it too. My opinion is she bitches about it simply to bitch about it.

Like in real life that one person you know who is so much more high and mighty than you, yet if THEY do something morally ambiguous it's OK because they "know" they are doing it for good reasons. It's ok when they are the exception to the rule.

: 343 can do a lot with all of these characters, but I just can't shake the
: feeling that the main agenda is seriously to just portray Halsey is awful,
: nothing else, and leave it at that going forward. Spartan Ops was the
: shining beacon of Halo 4, even with its many, many, many many many (you
: get the point) flaws. I really enjoyed it. I hope Halsey's character and
: writing doesn't betray itself. This stuff has to be earned, and I still
: have hope that she's on humanity's side and going to do the right thing
: somewhere.

: I think she is. Halsey has too much vested in our species not to see us
: flourish. Despite my deep hatred for this woman, she's shown nothing but
: loyalty to Earth and her colonies, whatever ulterior motives may be in
: play. Even after Parangosky's consistent sidelining throughout the war and
: her incarceration on Ivanoff, she was still ready to get back out there
: and advance our capabilities and understanding.

Again, I don't think that 343 is trying to suddenly flip Halsey around from conflicted Angel to Obvious Devil- I think what we are really seeing is them trying to show us the other side of the coin that we have not been seeing (or don't want to see) and the problem with that is it's coming off as too strong, too fast. In the franchise, Halsey has been built up for 10 years. Trying to knock her down a peg (to what I presume is to balance her out) in less than 3 is quite fast.

Here is the thing about Halsey (As I see it):
Halsey is NOT Hitler.
Halsey is NOT a savior.
Halsey is the embodiment of that primal, survive at all costs, do or die instinct that all living things have. That thing buried deep inside you that you call upon in the most dire of situations and then try desperately to pretend doesn't exist when you don't need it.

She is the smart and clever side of humanity. The prime example of the great things someone can do when given the tools. She's also prime example of what we do when we think no one is looking, or when we stop thinking a rule applies to us.

The question I kept asking myself almost 3 quarters into this book: Why are the characters (Mal, Vaz, Parangosky, Osman) and the author so focused on pointing all the blame to Halsey? ONE PERSON, CANNOT, do what she did, unchecked.

This area was FINALLY explored, by Sentzke of all people. He only gets to hear about Halsey a couple of times- just enough to piece together that she is the Brains of this freak show but he still remains and (thank god) asks "What about the people who let her do this?" Griz, you may think Halsey is a c***, but I feel the same way about Parangosky. THE BUCK, SHOULD HAVE STOPPED WITH HER. She was CINCONI.

(Maggie making Osman her successor obviously an attempt to make up for past sins in the whole, "you are the mistake I made so hopefully you won't make it yourself")

You see, people like Hitler, don't just show up one day, and seize power. People have to give it to them, willingly. When they stop questioning things, asking 'why', bad things happen. And you can't go back and say "They tricked me, I didn't know what I was doing was wrong" Bullshit. Bull.Shit. They knew, they CHOSE not to think about it.

In doing so, they get to play victim.

Halsey gets to be the scapegoat for it all. In reality, everyone involved should be punished. But then again in reality, that never happens, does it?

They whole, "I was just following orders" thing doesn't work.

Morality is a great until it comes down to survival.

Now we've rewritten history
The one thing we've found out,
Sweet Taste of vindication; It turns to ashes in your mouth

The other revelations

I still don't know how I feel regarding the wrap up with BB. I saw something like that coming, about why he was so much the opposite of Halsey. I didn't expect it to be THAT close, but I'll roll with it. I felt like it was too convenient for Parangosky to use to wash her hands. In the end, everyone was just trying to make things as right they could. Vaz\Mal, Sentzke, Serin, BB. Even Halsey did that with the Spartans on a few occasions.

The problem with what's "right" is that its so subjective and dependent on so many variables. You do the best with what you have. Hind sight is always 20/20.

And Serin's reveal? That surprised me. It was another one of those catch 22 moments where Halsey did good and bad. Another + for Traviss succeeding in making a situation not black and white, leaving it up to the reader to decide what if it was good or bad, right or wrong.

: Going back to her loyalty to humanity, I ask what side is she on, if not her
: own?

I think it is obvious that she is on humanity's side.

[** The thing that bugs me with this logic train is that they are all wrong in my opinion. The Spartans weren't the reason that Humanity won. Humanity didn't even "win"! It was a TKO! The Covenant tore itself apart, essentially letting the UNSC win by default. The REAL threat in all this was the Flood. YES, the Master Chief obviously played a major part in stopping that threat(point for Halsey), but had the Flood not been a thing, and the Covenant not imploded, I have a very, very hard time believing that Humanity would have survived. The two outcomes would have been the Covenant successfully activating the Halo's and killing EVERYONE or the Covenant wiping out Humanity.]

Messages In This Thread

Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Grizzlei1/24/14 4:20 am
     One more concern to note...Grizzlei1/24/14 4:24 am
           THISMid7night1/24/14 9:36 am
                 SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 7:50 pm
                       Eh sorry, that's "Late 2517 - Reach" *NM*Grizzlei1/25/14 7:53 pm
                       Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*DEEP NNN1/25/14 9:40 pm
                       Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Avateur1/25/14 9:57 pm
                             Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 10:20 pm
                                   Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*DEEP NNN1/25/14 10:48 pm
                                   Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Avateur1/25/14 11:19 pm
                                         Re: The SpartansRevenant19881/26/14 1:06 am
                                         Nitpicking...Arithmomaniac1/26/14 1:21 pm
                                               Re: Nitpicking...Avateur1/26/14 1:35 pm
                                   Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Revenant19881/26/14 12:46 am
                                         Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Grizzlei1/26/14 1:42 am
                                               Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Revenant19881/26/14 3:56 am
                                                     Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*DEEP NNN1/26/14 8:21 am
                                                     Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Grizzlei1/26/14 1:50 pm
                                                           Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Quirel1/26/14 2:39 pm
                                                                 Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Grizzlei1/26/14 4:13 pm
                                               Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*Arithmomaniac1/26/14 12:37 pm
                                         Re: Maybe\probably more spoilers. *big post*DEEP NNN1/26/14 8:17 am
                                         Chief wins alldavidfuchs1/27/14 11:22 am
                                               Re: Chief wins allRevenant19881/27/14 11:34 am
                                   Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Arithmomaniac1/26/14 1:06 pm
                                         Re: SPOILERY MINI SPOILFEST part 1 *SP*Grizzlei1/26/14 1:33 pm
                       What's Jorge's deal?Dervish2/2/14 5:36 pm
     Side thought (kinda OT)padraig081/24/14 10:26 am
           Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Revenant19881/24/14 10:55 am
                 Re: Side thought (kinda OT)padraig081/24/14 11:06 am
                       Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Revenant19881/24/14 11:12 am
                             Re: Side thought (kinda OT)padraig081/24/14 11:15 am
                 Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Grizzlei1/24/14 4:19 pm
           Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Leviathan1/24/14 11:58 am
                 My thoughts to both Padraig and Levi actuallyMacGyver101/24/14 3:26 pm
                       Link for Epilogue Cutscene BTW: Jump to 2:35MacGyver101/24/14 3:29 pm
                       Re: My thoughts to both Padraig and Levi actuallypadraig081/24/14 3:45 pm
                             Re: My thoughts to both Padraig and Levi actuallyArithmomaniac1/26/14 1:12 pm
                                   Re: My thoughts to both Padraig and Levi actuallyGrizzlei1/26/14 4:54 pm
                       Re: My thoughts to both Padraig and Levi actuallyQuirel1/24/14 9:41 pm
                 The only thing I disagree with...Quirel1/24/14 10:03 pm
                       Re: The only thing I disagree with...Leviathan1/24/14 11:00 pm
           Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Grizzlei1/24/14 3:53 pm
                 Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Avateur1/24/14 5:57 pm
                       Re: Side thought (kinda OT)scarab2/2/14 5:05 pm
                             Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Quirel2/2/14 9:13 pm
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Avateur2/2/14 10:18 pm
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)davidfuchs2/2/14 11:09 pm
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)scarab2/4/14 7:17 pm
                                         Re: Side thought (kinda OT)rhubarb2/4/14 7:30 pm
                                               Re: Side thought (kinda OT)scarab2/5/14 12:39 pm
                                         Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Quirel2/5/14 12:39 am
                             Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Avateur2/2/14 10:16 pm
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Avateur2/2/14 10:19 pm
                                         Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Quirel2/2/14 10:36 pm
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)Revenant19882/2/14 10:34 pm
                                         Spoil me rev, I want that knowledge in me now! *NM*padraig082/3/14 11:54 am
                                   Re: Side thought (kinda OT)scarab2/5/14 1:02 pm
           I kinda want to play as a rogue Spartan/EliteFlynn J Taggart1/24/14 7:53 pm
                 Re: I kinda want to play as a rogue Spartan/Elitecrazedone19881/25/14 3:28 am
                       Re: I kinda want to play as a rogue Spartan/EliGrizzlei1/25/14 10:36 am
     Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*DHalo1/25/14 6:36 am
           Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 10:08 am
                 Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*DHalo1/25/14 10:59 am
                       Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 11:59 am
                             Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*DHalo1/25/14 1:47 pm
                                   Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 2:21 pm
           Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Avateur1/25/14 7:32 pm
                 Re: Mortal Dictata thoughts *Minor SP*Grizzlei1/25/14 8:02 pm
     Simple solution to all of this controversy...Postmortem1/25/14 3:08 pm
           No.Grizzlei1/25/14 3:30 pm
                 Re: No.davidfuchs1/27/14 11:05 am
           Re: Simple solution to all of this controversy...Frankie1/27/14 2:13 pm
                 Re: Simple solution to all of this controversy...Quirel1/27/14 2:15 pm
                 Who is this strange person?Revenant19881/27/14 3:38 pm
                 See, this is what happensMacGyver101/27/14 3:52 pm
                       Re: See, this is what happensQuirel1/27/14 4:02 pm
                       Re: See, this is what happensmunky-0581/27/14 4:05 pm
                 Re: Simple solution to all of this controversy...DEEP NNN1/27/14 6:17 pm

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