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Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"
Date: 12/3/13 3:56 pm
In Response To: Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer" (Quirel)

: I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

As I attempted to clarify earlier.

: When you say 'artist', you seem to be thinking about really creative guys
: holed up in some conference room, spending all day with paintbrushes and
: canvas to produce alien landscape and character designs, which are later
: realized by people who sit at computers.

Apart from your dramatic exaggeration, technically yes - as I clarified, the position of concept artist itself.

: When I say artist, I mean art. Every damn thing you see when you play a game
: is the product of an artist. Models, textures, the main menu, etc.

As I said earlier.

: Programmers are the people who build the game. Maybe they create tools for
: the artists, in that they implement shaders and particle effects.

As I clarified earlier - the graphic artist position, for lack of a better term, that funnels the 'vision' into its technical housing, bound to software and hardware limitations.

: Hypothetically speaking, if they're drawing sprawling vistas that don't
: translate into something that is fun to play through, they need to go back
: and try it again.

Have you seen ANY concept art? I mean real concept art. The whole point of concept art is to conceptualize. To imagine, to create, to visualize. Sprawling vistas are concepts. Detailed charicatures, sketches, angles, closeups, poses. Those visions are then optimized and adjusted in subsequent steps to make "fun", to make possible. In video games and for movie fx.

: And yes, a major problem with AAA games these days is that the skybox and
: distant environment is great to look at, but the play area is an ugly,
: muddled mess.


: Then the art he produces is useless to the rest of the team, except as
: motivational posters to hang in the halls.

That, partially, IS the point of the concept artist.

: If we can use Halo Wars as an example, the earliest (?) concept art was
: mostly sweeping battlescapes, with UNSC infantry fleeing from colossal
: Scarab walkers. Later, more useful concept art was the technical stuff,
: like designs for the destructible Forerunner ruins in the level Scarab.


: I highly doubt it was the code jockeys.

Based solely on what comments I've read here about the 'garbage', I find it unlikely it was concept artists' suggestion either.

: Programmers. Don't. Create. Art.

I. Know. Are. you. trying. to. correct. me. or. something?

: If they tweaked a game engine so it could handle more special effects than
: the previous games, it was still up to the artists to use those tools
: well.


: Oh. Hey.
: Um... that clarifies some things...

Ah, ok. Well I replied to your previous comments before getting this far. Presumably just as you did. Let's see if it actually clarified anything in the remaining responses...

: That said, concept artists need to be faced with some limitations, whether it
: be "Design armor that doesn't look like crap in bad lighting" or
: "Design a vista that's fun to fight across, and not a muddy mess in
: first person perspective."

Not hardware limitations.
Not software limitations.
Just a subjective "what you think" guideline that makes the vision easier to translate into game form (or movie, if say for example certain action is written to take place in the environment).
And again, depending on team size or development limitations, the 'concept artist' position may be mixed in with other team members' roles; to save time, or money, or just work. Different team formulas produce different results, sometimes better, sometimes worse, sometimes just a reflection of the skills of the staff.

: Y'see, that's the standard "Shoot for the moon" mentality, and it's
: not the way I was taught. What I was taught is probably best summed up as
: a constant cycle of "What do you need to do? What are you capable of
: doing? Act. Improve."

And to whatever degree is feasible, I consider that a 2nd step task in the 'ideal' overall process. Step 1) Imagine. Create. Step 2) Optimize. Reduce/Improve. Make practical. 3) Make it work. Finalize. Repeat step 2-3 as necessary. Or, go back "to the drawing board" (oh hey, wonder what that implies :P)

: And I can't see that happening any more than I can see the UI designer
: sneaking into Chris Schlerf's office, rewriting the script, and that's
: what made it into Halo 4.
: "Oh, no, the Didact wasn't supposed to come across as a senile pastiche
: of a C-list Marvel villain. That just happened."


: Groupthink. It's a terrible thing to behold.

If done poorly. If managed well, and it's what whoever makes the decisions wants, then it could, in theory, still work. Not that I'm condoning it. Just saying. "Team meeting! ...What are your thoughts on X, Y, and Z?" -- pass on the results to the people who deal with them. As a form of 'test audience', it's done all the time. As long as people's responsibilities and roles in the team remain the same. Avoid micromanaging, and avoid macromanaging (or whatever you want to call working above your pay grade, as it were :P)

: Given how simple Forerunner styles stayed until Halo 4, I'd say that simple
: and monolithic was the design intent, regardless of how powerful the
: graphical engine was.

I agree, to a degree. Like most, I'm not a huge fan of the 'busyness' of 343's FR styles. But practically speaking, original Halo FR esthetic did seem a bit on the vast, impractical, excessive end of the scale :P. I'd personally prefer an esthetic somewhere in between Halo 1 and 4's.

:: 'matte' painting in place of environment geometry
: Oh, yes they did.
: Remember the cutscene of the Infinity flying through the clouds and crashing
: in the distance? 100% matte painting. I seem to recall seeing a WIP video
: of it, and it was clear that the effect would fall flat* if the camera was
: a few meters to either side.

Ah right. Link to the video? Just re-watched the scene, and some of the ship at least looks like geometry in 3space, moreso than just a mesh warp of the sprite.

But the one that still sticks out for me is in Halo 2, the butt ugly mattes used at Threshold...

: *Badump tish!

: I've got my own theories. None of them charitable.

Let alone highly charitable.

Messages In This Thread

Poen: A DareSchooly D11/26/13 1:49 am
     Re: Poen: A DareCody Miller11/26/13 2:05 am
           Re: Poen: A DareSchooly D11/26/13 2:30 am
                 SeriousCody Miller11/26/13 2:16 pm
                       Re: SeriousSchooly D11/26/13 3:16 pm
                             Re: SeriousRevenant198811/26/13 3:26 pm
                                   To add: My guilty pleasureRevenant198811/26/13 3:29 pm
                                         Re: To add: My guilty pleasureQuirel11/28/13 1:54 am
                                   Re: SeriousSchooly D11/26/13 3:34 pm
                                         Re: SeriousRevenant198811/26/13 4:00 pm
                                               I call it "Greeble Cancer"Quirel11/26/13 4:58 pm
                                                     Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"Cody Miller11/26/13 7:03 pm
                                                           Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"uberfoop11/26/13 7:10 pm
                                                                 Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"Cody Miller11/27/13 4:51 pm
                                                           Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"Quirel11/28/13 1:53 am
                                                                 Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"Cody Miller11/28/13 3:30 am
                                                                       Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"thebruce011/28/13 9:52 am
                                                     Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"thebruce011/27/13 10:09 am
                                                           Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"thebruce011/27/13 10:18 am
                                                                 Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"RC Master11/27/13 10:31 am
                                                                       Some Great Designs ThereMacGyver1011/27/13 11:57 am
                                                                       Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"thebruce011/27/13 7:03 pm
                                                           Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"Quirel11/28/13 1:42 am
                                                                 Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"thebruce011/28/13 10:39 am
                                                                       Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"General Battuta11/28/13 7:29 pm
                                                                             Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"uberfoop11/28/13 8:37 pm
                                                                                   Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"thebruce011/29/13 7:08 pm
                                                                                         Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"General Vagueness11/30/13 2:21 am
                                                                                               Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"Clarion12/1/13 8:21 am
                                                                       Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"Quirel12/2/13 11:09 pm
                                                                             Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"thebruce012/3/13 3:56 pm
                                                                                   Re: I call it "Greeble Cancer"General Vagueness12/3/13 8:17 pm
                                               Re: Seriousscarab11/26/13 5:59 pm
                                                     Harvester and Elite armor - too much Mud Box? *NM*scarab11/26/13 6:10 pm
                                                     Re: SeriousQuirel11/28/13 2:00 am
                                                           Re: Seriousscarab12/4/13 6:25 am
                                               Re: SeriousRC Master11/26/13 6:33 pm
                       Re: SeriousRevenant198811/26/13 3:19 pm
     Re: Poen: A DareHawaiian Pig11/26/13 2:06 am
           Re: Poen: A DareCody Miller11/26/13 2:07 am
           Re: Poen: A DareSchooly D11/26/13 2:19 am
                 This thread stinks *NM*Cody Miller11/26/13 2:19 am
                 Re: Poen: A DareFlynn J Taggart11/27/13 12:04 am
     Re: Poen: A DareLeviathan11/26/13 3:32 pm
           Re: Poen: A DareCody Miller11/26/13 3:39 pm
                 Re: Poen: A DareLeviathan11/26/13 4:11 pm
                       Re: Poen: A DareRevenant198811/26/13 4:20 pm
                             Re: Poen: A DareLeviathan11/26/13 6:47 pm
                       Re: Poen: A DareCody Miller11/26/13 4:30 pm
                             Re: Poen: A Dareuberfoop11/26/13 4:45 pm
                                   Re: Poen: A DareCody Miller11/26/13 4:46 pm
                                         Re: Poen: A Dareuberfoop11/26/13 4:56 pm
                             Re: Poen: A DareLeviathan11/26/13 6:54 pm
                                   Re: Poen: A DareRC Master11/27/13 8:39 am
                                         Re: Poen: A DareCody Miller11/27/13 4:55 pm
                       Where does the weapon end and the scenary begin?scarab11/26/13 6:06 pm
     Halo - The AtlasFear_Of_Falling11/26/13 4:07 pm
           Re: Halo - The AtlasSchooly D11/26/13 4:11 pm
     Favorite and retweet. *NM*CARDO 8 ATL11/27/13 5:15 pm
     I'm disappointed in all of you.SonofMacPhisto11/27/13 7:45 pm
           Re: I'm disappointed in all of you.ZackDark11/27/13 8:20 pm
           Re: I'm disappointed in all of you.Cody Miller11/27/13 8:26 pm
           Re: I'm disappointed in all of you.Captain Spark11/28/13 10:35 am
                 Re: I'm disappointed in all of you.SonofMacPhisto11/29/13 5:22 pm
           Re: I'm disappointed in all of you.thebruce011/28/13 10:42 am
           Seconded.Kermit11/29/13 5:59 am
           Re: I'm disappointed in all of you.asa11/29/13 2:27 pm

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