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Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...
By:General Vagueness
Date: 5/6/15 2:19 am
In Response To: Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas... (thebruce0)

: Ahh, see I'm not restricting to plot stuff before a certain narrative time.
: That's the whole point of teasers. To make you wonder what's going on, how
: it's happening, who's involved... to speculate about future plot. And to
: me , Chief carrying the chip screams journey to either A) Save Cortana or
: B) eventually find a way to let her go.

That's not what I'm asking about. You're big on the idea that they don't need to invent some new thing to have her be alive, and I want to know what things within the story they told and finished indicated some possibility of her being alive (because if you can't look at Halo 4 as a whole story, I don't know what you can look at as a whole story, because so many things are part of a larger whole while still being what I would consider sufficiently self-contained to be their own story).

: Says who? This is sci-fi,

It can be sci-fi, it can be fantasy, it can be flying purple bananas, there are certain basic facts of life; including them makes a story relatable. The fact some things are unavoidable, and the fact sometimes you try your best and fail, are facts of life.

: As I said, John & Cortana are a duo. It doesn't seem right that half the
: duo is killed off 2/3 of the way through the story.

You already admitted they're going for more than two more games (and really, I don't see a reasonable argument for them not making games until they stop being profitable), so there's no good reason to say it's 2/3 of the way through or 1/2 or anything else. It happened at the end of the specific story it was in, the story of Halo 4, which suggests finality.

: All of this is my speculation based on my observation of plot points and the way they're
: telling the story. Sure, I could be wrong. But I really do not think that
: I am :) (And I haven't yet seen a convincing argument otherwise either)

Well now I feel like a bit of a failure, because I've been bringing every bit of logic and rhetoric to bear and haven't been convincing at all.

: eh? I don't remember ever saying that they were not the center of the
: numbered Halo series.

Looking back, you didn't, I just thought you did by your response to me stating that. I maintain the original trilogy was mainly about the Covenant and the Flood and how they interact with various aspects of the universe, and Bungie (or some of their writers) made statements to that effect.
Halo 3 strayed from that, but as much as it strayed to humanize the Chief and Cortana,* it strayed just as much to bring in Forerunner elements.
Halo 4 was a very different thing, and intentionally so. Most of those differences I either dislike or have no strong feelings about, but I really liked the way they handled Cortana.

: People like me are a little less strict about "acceptability"; for
: me, personally because I like to enjoy things rather than be super
: critical as if my own opinion is the only way that things should be done.
: As I said, I can accept either outcome, and I'll likely enjoy it. I'd
: prefer, and I expect, Cortana to return, but I'm nowhere near as, I dunno,
: offended at the prospect of her dying as some people here are of her
: returning...
: My suspension of disbelief can stretch a little farther than some people. Is
: that a problem? I like to enjoy things I want to enjoy :)

That's the weird thing, because I thought I was like that, and I've sided with you before in not being concerned about certain things, but I think bringing her back would be a clear case of bad writing, and you're not only unconcerned about it, you want it to happen. Of course, I'm more concerned with the effect of a story than what is or isn't considered bad writing-- if I thought about it I'm sure I could name some things that I acknowledge are badly written but that I still like-- but this wouldn't just be bad writing, it would weaken the story for me, not to mention my already very shaky faith in the people telling it (if you can't stick to your own story, why should I bother following it?).

: That's what I see. That's what I've come to expect. Do you have a need to
: convince me somehow that Cortana will never return to the Halo franchise?

Well you've been misunderstanding me, and here you are again talking about possibility versus impossibility. It is always possible for something to happen in a story. The writer is God in their stories, they don't have to follow any rules. My point is that this shouldn't happen, for emotional reasons, and for reasons of A following on from B-- there's no point A that I can see in the story of Halo 4 that should lead to the point B of Cortana being alive again (or alive still, if you want to hammer on the distinction)... but yeah, I also do want to be right, whatever that even means in a case like this, because as you point out a lot of it comes down to opinion and even more of it comes down to preference.

: Most novels do.

Most games don't, including Halo games (there was that bit in the last cutscene of Reach, otherwise no narration I'm aware of). I don't think it's reasonable to doubt major parts of a story unless some all-knowing voice proclaims them to you, when the story or line of stories has never used that before and hasn't deliberately mislead you in the past (at least, Halo hasn't done that that I can think of).

: You know, typical narration. Not italicized character
: thoughts, but statements. Usually explicitly stated narration is not a
: trick or play on words. And you're right, Halo doesn't have that; and
: that's the point. Save for animated shorts like recent Terminals (which
: for the most part do have elements of narration), aside from some scene
: captions, everything is our "watching" of events unfold, which
: means it's all necessarily limited to perspectives and perception of
: characters. That's how I view events. You don't have to view it that way,
: but I do. Because that, to me, helps me enjoy it much more, leaving doors
: open for imagination and speculation.

I get that, I argued the same thing about Star Wars last month (heh, the subject becomes relevant again), and I probably got people thinking the same thing I think about your stance. (The difference is in this being a major plot point versus a bit of character building.)

: I doin't want to believe that Cortana is dead. I wno't be devastated if she
: is, but much more of me is convinced, for many reasons, that she will
: return. If not, then I really hope that John's journey to accepting this
: fact is done so well that I associate with it and experience it myself.
: That, to me, is good storytelling.

I guess that's fair. I'm still curious what the reasons are, you touched on them a bit, but only a bit.

* for the record I'm still not on board with humanizing the Chief as much as we've seen, I believe he was intended to be a shell that the player was supposed to fill, a little bit of practical intelligence, professionalism, and dry sarcastic wit stuck to the inside of an empty suit of armor, and I believe that's where he works best


Messages In This Thread

Halo 5: Guardians cover artGrizzlei4/28/15 4:46 pm
     Re: Halo 5: Guardians cover artMacGyver104/28/15 5:15 pm
           Re: Halo 5: Guardians cover artArteenEsben4/28/15 7:28 pm
           Re: Halo 5: Guardians cover artcar154/28/15 7:37 pm
                 Re: Halo 5: Guardians cover artserpx4/28/15 9:10 pm
                 Re: Halo 5: Guardians cover artGravemind4/28/15 9:15 pm
     Re: Halo 5: Guardians cover artgamerguy20024/28/15 6:27 pm
           Re: Halo 5: Guardians cover artzofinda4/28/15 6:45 pm
                 Overhypes *NM*ZackDark4/28/15 7:02 pm
                       Re: Overhypeszofinda4/28/15 7:19 pm
                             Woah, woah, woah, hold yer horsesZackDark4/28/15 8:29 pm
                                   #Better Be Buck *NM*Bounce-A-Gon4/28/15 8:44 pm
                                   Re: Woah, woah, woah, hold yer horsesserpx4/28/15 9:11 pm
                                         Hyperion *NM*ZackDark4/28/15 10:22 pm
                                         How will they fit all that onto the box I wonder. *NM*Apollo4/28/15 11:51 pm
                                               Re: How will they fit all that onto the box I wondGeneral Vagueness4/29/15 1:24 am
                                               I think this is the actual box art.Gravemind4/29/15 1:59 am
                                   You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...munky-0584/29/15 3:22 am
                                         Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...hunt3r4/29/15 5:04 am
                                               Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...thebruce04/29/15 10:43 am
                                                     Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...General Vagueness4/29/15 1:38 pm
                                                           Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...thebruce04/29/15 2:08 pm
                                                                 Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...General Vagueness4/30/15 3:26 pm
                                                                       +1 *NM*Quirel4/30/15 4:34 pm
                                                                       Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...thebruce04/30/15 8:17 pm
                                                                             Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...General Vagueness4/30/15 10:11 pm
                                                                                   +1 again. *NM*Quirel5/1/15 3:52 pm
                                                                                   Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...thebruce05/4/15 11:12 am
                                                                                         Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...General Vagueness5/4/15 1:26 pm
                                                                                               Kill this thread. kill it dead. i am tired of it *NM*Bounce-A-Gon5/4/15 3:02 pm
                                                                                                     Re: How wude! *NM*thebruce05/4/15 3:21 pm
                                                                                                     Re: Yeah. Seriously. *NM*Hyokin5/5/15 2:58 pm
                                                                                                     I want to see how far this goes.Quirel5/5/15 3:35 pm
                                                                                                           Re: I want to see how far this goes.thebruce05/5/15 3:46 pm
                                                                                                                 Re: I want to see how far this goes.Hyokin5/5/15 4:47 pm
                                                                                                           Re: I want to see how far this goes.General Vagueness5/6/15 2:24 am
                                                                                               Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...thebruce05/4/15 3:20 pm
                                                                                                     rolls eyes and sighs heavily *NM*Bounce-A-Gon5/4/15 3:35 pm
                                                                                                           Re: Ok. *NM*thebruce05/4/15 4:52 pm
                                                                                                     Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...General Vagueness5/5/15 2:35 pm
                                                                                                           Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...thebruce05/5/15 3:31 pm
                                                                                                                 Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...General Vagueness5/6/15 2:19 am
                                                                                                                       Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...thebruce05/6/15 10:56 am
                                                                                                                             Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...General Vagueness5/6/15 11:52 am
                                                                                                                                   Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...thebruce05/6/15 2:10 pm
                                                                                                                                         Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...General Vagueness5/7/15 8:46 pm
                                                                                                                                               Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...thebruce05/8/15 9:59 am
                                                                                                                                                     Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...General Vagueness5/8/15 12:13 pm
                                                                                                                                                           Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...thebruce05/8/15 12:42 pm
                                                                                                                                                                 WHY WONT THIS THREAD DIE *NM*Bounce-A-Gon5/8/15 9:42 pm
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: WHY WONT THIS THREAD DIEHyokin5/8/15 9:57 pm
                                                                                                                                                                       Perpetual. Motion.Quirel5/9/15 4:30 am
                                                                                                                                                                       Re: WHY WONT THIS THREAD DIEthebruce05/11/15 2:33 pm
                                                                                                                                                                 Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...General Vagueness5/9/15 1:52 pm
                                                     On death (GoT spoils)Cody Miller4/29/15 11:02 pm
                                                           Re: On death (GoT spoils)thebruce04/30/15 9:21 am
                                                     Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...Quirel4/30/15 5:14 pm
                                                           Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...thebruce04/30/15 8:19 pm
                                                                 Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...Quirel5/1/15 3:31 pm
                                                                       Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas... *IMGs*thebruce05/4/15 11:33 am
                                                                             Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas... *IMGs*Grizzlei5/4/15 12:15 pm
                                               Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...Cody Miller4/29/15 10:59 pm
                                                     Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...hunt3r4/30/15 3:09 am
                                                           Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...MacGyver104/30/15 2:56 pm
                                         an aging jaded fanbase *NM*Bounce-A-Gon4/29/15 5:16 am
                                               Re: an aging jaded fanbasemunky-0584/29/15 6:50 am
                                                     Re: ehhhhhhhhhhRevenant19884/29/15 10:09 am
                                                           Re: ehhhhhhhhhhCody Miller4/30/15 2:42 pm
                                                                 Re: ehhhhhhhhhhMacGyver104/30/15 3:00 pm
                                                                       Re: ehhhhhhhhhhGeneral Vagueness4/30/15 3:32 pm
                                                           Re: ehhhhhhhhhhQuirel4/30/15 4:30 pm
                                         Wow.Quirel4/30/15 3:55 pm
                                         Re: You see, 343 is the new George Lucas...serpx5/4/15 8:32 pm

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