: Man, I went away for about sixteen hours and this thread
: just... evolved. Okay, I'm leaving out the quotes in
: this response because I want to speak to a number of
: points that were made above.
: 1) I'd tend to agree that the flavor text has to refer to
: the most recent fall of Stoneheim, though my evidence
: is circumstantial. It goes like this: we know that the
: fall referred to here happened only hours after the
: fall of Myrgard. I tend to doubt that every time one
: city falls, the other goes with it--that they both
: went within hours suggests to me the blitzkrieg-type
: tactics that Balor employed.
Personally, these tactics seem to me to be employed by every major Dark lord. Look at Soulblighter's advance, for instance (although admittedly he had Balor as a teacher). In fact, I'd say Balor's army probably moved slower than most, due to its large contingent of undead. Imagine how quickly Moagim's Krid army, for instance, would have swept over the Dwarven lands.
: Secondly, the other
: flavor texts that make mention of Dwarven history
: (except the ones referring to the Smiths and the
: Cultists and the Mausoleum, which seem to be
: associated with the "old school" dwarf
: names) all seem to refer to recent events--the
: destruction of the Godhead, the new lives in the west,
: and so on (I'm sure there are other exceptions--let me
: know).
Well...I grant you that the Myth II flavors are recent, but so are the Myth II flavors for almost all the veteran units; it is a sequel, after all, and the big question on every player's mind is "What's happened since TFL?" As for the TFL flavors: there's four (2 regular, 1 pathfinder, 1 hero). One of them's the Stoneheim flavor we've been discussing; one of them's ancient, concerning events in "the early Dwarven eddas"; one of them's recent, referring to the ring of corpses around Covenant; and one of them is unspecified but mentions Thrall, so it could be any time during or after the Wind Age. So I don't think we can make a judgment of time period based on this.
Finally, the fact that the twin falls happened
: within hours of each other suggests a high level of
: communications technology--either radio or, at the
: very least, a series of signal fires such as the
: ancient Greeks used to send back news of the fall of
: Troy. We know that dwarven technology develops at a
: very rapid pace (we go from molotov cocktails to
: balloon bombardment to very advanced firearms and
: artillery in a couple of centuries, advancements that
: human scientists consider "awe-inspiring to
: behold" or whatever it says in the mortar flavor
: text), so I doubt the dwarves would have had such good
: signal technology a thousand years ago or more. Like I
: said, all circumstantial, but...
Remember, the Dwarven pace of technological development is only awe-inspiring to the even slower-progressing humans. To judge from the Dwarven ghosts and the catacombs, the Dwarves were accomplished architects and possessed cocktail technology over 2,000 years ago. Does this conflict with their apparently more rapid pace of development recently? I don't think so. First, the muskets, mortars and cannons of Myth II aren't all *that* advanced over the molotovs; they're pretty much the first thing you'd make once you got the idea to use your explosives to propel a projectile. Second, just like the humans, the Dwarves probably get stalled or regressed technologically every time a Dark Lord comes along and hammers their civilization to dust. It may be that the Dwarves are simply rediscovering stuff their forefathers already knew.
Anyway, the ancient Dwarves had cocktails, so they had at least one good way to signal their friends at a distance. :-)
: 2) Speaking of dwarven technology... this is more of a
: general point, raised by the question of how much
: magic the dwarves use. Now, it seems to me that the
: dwarves are the most pragmatic and cynical of all the
: races. It's part of what makes them such good
: scientists. I can't see them eschewing a whole branch
: of physics (magic) on basic principles. While other
: races might be better at it--more in touch with the
: One Dream or whatever--the dwarves would certainly
: take advantage of whatever magic they could get their
: hands on. We also have some loose evidence that they
: used to be more heavily into it than they are
: now--specifically the fact that the Dwarf tags include
: a number of magical effects, such as a magic fireball
: and a magic contrail (never used, but left in for some
: reason). Also, the recent developments in Dwarven tech
: have all been science-based while the oldest marvels
: (the Tain, the Pathfinder Ring, this Maul of the
: Dwarven Kings, and so on) were much more magical. It
: strikes me that the Dwarves are/were perfectly
: comfortable with magic, however that as the years pass
: and their scientists learn more and more they prefer
: to use the predictable, repeatable technologies (our
: science) than the raw elemental forces (magic) and
: therefore are moving beyond what Humans and fir'Bolgs
: are capable of.
: Just a thought.
I agree in general...I think that the Dwarves, lacking the raw magical might wielded by exceptional humans and fir'Bolg, compensate by excelling in the complexity and versatility of their magical artifacts and personnel. Pathfinders can't throw fireballs or shoot lightning from their eyes; instead they have an arsenal of minor-but-useful psionic abilities which make them formidable warriors when used intelligently.
I doubt that the Dwarves are less into magic these days by choice...they're still training Pathfinders and I suppose they're still making Tarnkappen occasionally. I think the reason no new Mauls and such are being made is that a) just like humanity, they lost a lot of magical knowhow and artifacts when their cities were overrun, and b) to make an artifact which is both versatile AND powerful (like the Maul, enchanted with a battery of combat spells), they need high-level mages (probably human) to amp-up their creations. The Smiths, of course, could probably use the Spider-Gods as a power source, just like the Fetch. But until the Dwarves start combining their magical skill with Human magical might again (which should happen pretty soon, now that the two races are living together more), we won't see new stuff like the Maul or the World Knots.
: 3) Hey, while we're here... this possible link between
: the Deceiver and the Spider Cults brings me back to a
: very old point--my belief that Myrdred was Connacht's
: favorite Avatara. I can hear you groaning already, but
: think about it: if Myrdred was associated with the
: cultists that would almost certainly have to place him
: in Muirthemne at the right time to become one of
: Connacht's lieutenants and a peer of Damas, right?
: Right? Okay, let me know why I'm wrong.
I agree with this, though in my pet theory the causation is reversed...I think Myrdred came east from Madrigal once Connacht's exploits caught the eye of the Nine, and when he was in Muirthemne he got to know the Smiths. But it could go either way.
: 4) Finally--one of the reasons this thread interests me
: so much is that I'm currently working on a new level
: based on, yes, dwarves. Specifically new and untested
: dwarf technologies (the objective is to retake a
: fallen dwarf research station--can you say Ghol
: Pathfinders?). Originally it was going to be called
: "The 17th Stoneheim Irregulars", thought I
: may have to change that now (since it appears there
: isn't currently a Stoneheim for them to be based out
: of). Anyway, I have a few questions to help with this
: project: a) Were the two cities independent
: city-states, or was one of them a capital of the
: Dwarven kingdom? The flavor texts are maddeningly
: vague, speaking of Ephors and Archons, which would
: seem to suggest the former, but we also know there
: were Dwarven Kings, which would suggest the latter--or
: did the Dwarves go over to some kind of Metropolitan
: Republic in the roughly recent past? Similarly, how
: regimented are Dwarven armies? I think I can get away
: with a Dwarven Captain (with, of course, a white
: tunic), but are their Dwarven Generals? Field
: Marshalls? Generalissimos?
According to GURPS, the Dwarven lands pre-Balor were a single state, ruled from the twin capitals of Myrgar and Stoneheim by two equally powerful Ephors. Kinda like Holland. GURPS also says Dwarven society was more like a guild than a nobility, which probably made the concept of two simultaneous leaders more tenable (like the president and the CEO in a modern corporation). We know that in the time of Myth II there's a single King of the Dwarves, Albrecht. I'd guess that after the Great War, the Ephor system was lost, and one part of the Dwarves joined humanity as subjects of Alric, while the rest stayed separate, ruled by Albrecht.
I'm not sure what Archons are...the term may be a synonym for Ephor, or it may refer to (as it did originally in Athens) the chief magistrate of the city. So the Archon of Stoneheim would be akin to our Chief Justice of the Supreme Court; he would decide judiciary matters for that half of the Dwarven lands and would be answerable only to the Ephors.
As for regimentation...I doubt there's much. There's very little mention of Dwarven rank except for Ephors and Archons; a guildlike social system is probably going to have a lot less ranking than an aristocratic system. Most Dwarves are highly independent and used to taking their own initiative (their dedication to racial well-being means they don't need to be overseen as much as human soldiers, who tend to hang back or desert a lot more). At the most, I'd say that each combat division has a captain, and that each set of divisions of a similar type (all the pathfinders, all the paratroopers, etc.) has a major or something, and that these report to one more rank which reports to the ruler(s).
: b) Part of the level is going to be looking for the wreck
: of the flagship of the Dwarven navy, the H.A.S (His
: Archon's Ship) Irascible. I won't give it away, but
: this is supposed to be a bit of comic relief--I mean,
: a Dwarven Navy? Then it occurred to me that there is,
: after all, a Dwarven Air Force and even, it seems,
: Dwarven Airborne Rangers. Is there any evidence for a
: naval presence?
Comic relief? The H.A.S. Irascible? Who would have guessed? Make sure it has a companion ship called the "Suicidal Insanity". :-)
A naval presence...not much of an opportunity for one, since the Dwarven lands seem to be landlocked (the nearest ocean is through a mountainous region of the Untamed Lands). And since the Dwarves have already started on air travel, I doubt they'd be too interested in boats; the sea is just someplace to float on while you repair the leak in your balloon and pump it back up.
The Berserks seem to form the major naval presence of the Mythworld, and I can certainly imagine them teaming up with the Dwarves: Zerk-manned ironclad battleships with mounted cannons and blunderbusses, acting as aircraft carriers for Dwarven balloon divisions...
: c) Finally--and don't worry, I won't get anal over this
: like I did last time--how far does one imagine Dwarven
: tech going in the fifty years after Soulblighter bites
: it at Tharsis? Would people buy Dwarven Radios
: (specifically radio detonation of satchel charges?).
: How about walking, constantly-exploding robots? It's a
: fantasy genre and a not-so-serious map so I suppose I
: can get away with whatever I want, but I want to keep
: the level of technology relatively consistent. On a
: similar note--I found a repulsion field in
: Weirdobodomons and I seem to remember that one of the
: old Asylum Units used a force field. Anyone mind me
: using something similar in my level? I was able to
: figure out how such a thing works on my own, so I'm
: not really stealing anything, but I don't want to step
: on any toes.
I made the thing, and nope, I don't mind if you use it. Feel free to copy it directly if you want. Ferrex has one in Raisin Barn too, btw.
GURPS says that the next big frontier in Dwarven technology is probably steam, and I tend to agree with this. Big zeppelins with steam-powered propeller systems; ironclad steam-driven tanks; maybe some incredibly unreliable WWI-era gatling gun stuff (or just repeater blunderbusses with, say, a five-pellet magazine expended on each attack). GURPS uses the term "Davinciesque;" you should probably think loud and smoky.
Radio? I doubt it; the Dwarves seem a long way from using electricity that way and communication's one area where magic really does excel. That's not to say the effect can't be used, just that it's more likely to be a delayed, mentally-triggered "sparking spell" than a radio-detonated fuse.
: I'm really enjoying this thread. Let's keep it going!
Shall we add in some haikus now?
--SiliconDream
