: The thing is, we don't really know what the dark ages
: were like. My guess would be that they aren't nearly
: as grim as some would like us to believe. They were,
: in my schema, merely times when there was no security,
: when evil kept bubbling out of the swamps and kept
: having to be put down. There's a big difference
: between mass slavery and death camps and merely a
: human society devoted to eternal vigilance, knowing
: that every time they got the harvest in they would
: have to face another wave of Thrall. Just because the
: current crises have been put down is no reason to
: believe that the next 900 years are going to be all
: fun and games. This may be a much gentler dark age
: than any in the past, but it's still called the
: "sword age" for a reason--the bad guys are
: still out there and it'll take another Great War to
: finally lay this undead invasion thing to rest. I have
: a feeling there aren't a lot of farmers who don't have
: a sword hanging in the barn, ready to be taken up when
: the plowshare is put down. The Heron Guard feel that
: the cycle might just be broken but all bets are still
: off. The comet is still up there, if the normal rules
: of astrophysics hold, and the Leveller doesn't die
: just because Balor sucked and Alric ruled.
Actually, the farmers don't even have pitchforks, if the in-game peasants are any indication...
I'll just say that the one Dark Age we know of, the Wind Age, was apparently a very nasty one for most of humanity. A few lucky folks were safe inside city walls--until the Watcher came by and ground them into the dirt with a million Thrall--but there's a reason the Krids still make Myth folks wet their pants at first sight. Over most of the world, humanity was constantly on the verge of extinction. Compared to this, the Sword Age so far--with only one war in the last sixty years, that killed probably less than a tenth of the total human population--is paradise. I'm not saying this indicates that the cycle is ended, though; as you say, perhaps Alric will simply die at some point and we'll have another Light Age, then Dark Age, and be back on track. Or any of the other possible futures GURPS discusses.
: Sure. We could get into a long discussion as to whether
: events in the game suggest that the crown and the
: sword have the power to live up to their hype, but it
: seems like a rather fruitless thread to start. I will
: mention that the berserk who picks up Balmung in the
: catacombs doesn't seem to be possessed by it, but
: that's about as far as I think we need to go with
: this. The value of the crown and the sword as symbols
: are, I think, more important.
I'll just mention that Scots are immune to mind control, except from guys in robes.
I think the GURPS-listed powers are truth rather than hype, but as you say there's not much point in debating it. I'm right, you're wrong, America's number one, can I have a dollar? Jeez, I thought I exhausted my silliness reserves in my other response-to-your-response-to-my-response-to-your-response...
: My point here was just that his claim of succession is a
: very, very thin one. He's an usurper under any canon
: of law you choose to name. That doesn't mean he isn't
: popular and it doesn't mean he's in the wrong--there
: is no line of succession at this point, so taking the
: crown for himself isn't going to get him into a lot of
: trouble. Ceiscoran and Connacht are both dead.
: However, in peace time I think he would have had a
: much harder time just waltzing in and declaring
: himself Emperor. No king, no matter how popular, rules
: by his will alone. He needs the support of the rest of
: the government. During wartime he has that support
: automatically because he's commander in chief--every
: other military leader in the free world has sworn
: fealty to him. As soon as the army is demobilized,
: however, he's going to be faced by a whole bunch of
: lesser lords with their own political futures to think
: of who might oppose him. Alric is very popular and by
: accident of misfortune he happens to be the last truly
: powerful archmage left alive but no matter how
: anarchic and freedom-loving he is, he's still a
: political figure and political figures will always
: have enemies.
I think his claim of succession is actually pretty good. It's just as good as Connacht's--more so, because there aren't any Bruig left to have rival claims. And I don't think any lesser lords would oppose him, because there's no reason to. What would they gain from blocking him from laying claim to a few thousand miles of desert? As I said in my other post, he could always just annex the area as part of the Province or something. And even if they'd have something to gain, would they dare go against him? He's a freakin' archmage! Not that he could wipe out half the Legion if a rival lord organized a mutiny--but he *could* transport himself to that lord's castle and turn it into a smoking crater. You couldn't hope for more than a Pyrrhic victory.
Now, I admit that he's not invulnerable to political intrigues and disgruntled lesser lords. GURPS itself talks about the measures they may take to influence his decision on whether or not to move the court to Muirthemne. But I tend to think that he isn't *so* vulnerable that he'd have to go out of his way during a war, and sacrifice men to retake a dead city, just so that he'd become emperor without anyone complaining.
: I like your theory, but I think mine (that the Leveller's
: only interest is in population control) works in
: conjunction with it. As each Leveller-infested guy
: gets older, he's going to become more and more
: powerful. The Leveller doesn't like exceptionally
: powerful people--they're too dangerous, they have the
: capacity to wipe out entire races (as Balor almost did
: with Muirthemne). I think, when the time comes the
: divinity sabotages its avatar (in the traditional
: sense, that's what the human half of the Leveller is)
: and lets some fresh blood in, knowing that when it
: comes time again, there'll be a perfect host waiting
: for it. To go along with your theory, maybe the
: Leveller (who you seem to be claiming is present in
: the Champion from birth) inspires the Hero as
: well--this would be kind of dodgy considering the
: "there are many heros, but only one
: leveller" quote, but we all know how flimsy that
: one is.
No, I wasn't saying the Leveller was present in the Champion from birth--just that it's capable of looking at both current champions before manifesting, and deciding which one to enter.
So you think the Leveller is acting to maintain the status quo, then? That was also Forrest's opinion, I believe, until I sent heavy-set Swedish toughs to his house and RE-EDUCATED him. **hefts Trademarked Weapon™**
: Hey, you think MB the Hed is agent of this Leveller? I
: dunno, MB!!!! Uh, sorry. What I meant to say was that
: maybe the Leveller sabotages his human half by sending
: agents like, for example, the Head.
Would he have to? Couldn't he just tell his avatar to fall on his sword or something? Or does he only have the power to influence his morality and provide him with useful knowledge? (which is certainly a possibility)
: Whoops... um, yeah, see above. And here are a couple
: more, just for kicks: It's easier to bend a good man
: to evil than an evil man to good. Evil is just too
: seductive.
I hope you're not speaking from experience... ;-)
: Another: With great age comes great rigidity. I'm
: thinking of a kind of long-view-mentality, which makes
: you start thinking that you know better than everybody
: else and that the ends justify the means. The
: Levellers, then, aren't "evil" in the common
: sense, they just have less interest in the feelings of
: others. When you're effectively immortal it's hard to
: look at normal mortals with any kind of respect. Your
: own goals, which are long-term and well-thought-out,
: start seeming like the right thing to do regardless of
: how many puny folk get hurt in the process. And yes, I
: do still believe that Balor thought of himself as
: Connacht and a good guy right up until his head got
: cut off.
You know, I think you've developed this particular psychological theory by observing the Bungie Webmaster...
: A third: To gain power in the Mythworld you have to have
: a weakness. When you start out as the Great Hero you
: have relatively little power. To beat the Leveller you
: have to grab as much as you can get. As a result, you
: develop character flaws--which manifest themselves in
: things like Balor's totally stoopid inability to
: resist smiting Myrkridian standards and also in
: Shiver's vanity. The Leveller can't just overcome your
: core personality--it needs a crack to seep in through,
: and these weaknesses provide such a crack. The Heros,
: with less power than the Levellers, can't be
: contaminated as easily. Alric, in his time, may be
: undone by his hatred of horses--the next Great Hero
: may actually use some cavalry units. One good cavalry
: charge could knock out an entire platoon of dwarven
: mortars and could run circles around a whole tribe of
: zerks, but Alric will still refuse to invest in a
: couple of saddles and a lance or two. I like this
: theory because it explains both how Heros get turned
: to the dark and also how Levellers eventually get
: defeated.
Indeed, and I could adapt parts of this to my own theory--Levellers are undone when their chaos- or order-obsession becomes so strong that it impairs their ability to conduct a war.
: As if I could stop now...
Hey, would you mind starting a new thread with *your* take on this whole Eternal Champions business, if you even believe in it? What do you think is the best bet on their motivations, and so forth? I can get a better grasp on how likely/unlikely my own theory is if I can see a rival one put forth in a single block rather than chunks of this "response" format. Not to mention that you've got *far* too many competing ideas of your own for me to respond to them all. Better to make you do the work of winnowing them down to one for me...
--SiliconDream
