: I also think The Deceiver would be able to convert a
: Shade, although The Watcher might not. Remember that
: the more self-aware a being is, the better The
: Deceiver is at controlling it; that's why he can't use
: his Binding Dream
: on most undead. They don't have any minds to control. The
: Watcher, on the other hand, probably uses his magic to
: work the bodies of his undead children like puppets,
: so the presence of a conscious mind in one of his
: slaves would tend to interfere. He probably has to
: simply persuade Shades to work with him.
No! Souless actually have capabilities to think. Read the prologue to "Ambush at Devil's Overlook" It says that Souless were confused and didn't know what to do. If the Watcher had total control over the souless, he would tell them exactly what to do. Instead, they kinda just are lost, which meanst that the Watcher doesn't always have direct control over them, which means they must have some thinking ability (though minimal).
: Anyway, I don't think The Deceiver and Phelot had
: anything to do with each other before "A Murder
: of Crows." The whole point of that bit about The
: Deceiver "grievously wounding" Phelot was
: that it hinted at Phelot's conversion. Myrdred popped
: him one and then, while Phelot was dazed, charmed him.
: Phelot's injury probably seemed to the narrator to be
: worse than it was, since he didn't realize that part
: of Phelot's odd behavior was due to the brainwashing
: and not to the actual physical injury. Why would The
: Deceiver have to wound Phelot if they were already
: allies?
Don't know. First, I'll play the level. I actually went out today looking for Myth 2 with intent to buy, but the place I went didn't have it.
: In my opinion, the most interesting thing about The
: Deceiver is how unsuited he is to the Dark. He may not
: be a good guy, but he's completely a product of
: civilization; he's an orator, a poet and in some sense
: a scientist (at least, he's making poisons right and
: left). He's a favorite of the highly civilized Trow.
: He obviously enjoys interacting with other sentient
: beings, although usually he's trying to brainwash them
: or trick them into destroying themselves. In a word,
: he needs people around. This puts him completely at
: odds with the other Fallen Lords, who always target
: the most civilized areas first and who want the world
: to contain only the "unthinking dead." This
: is probably a big part of his problem with The
: Watcher, who is perhaps the most dedicated of the
: Fallen, if not the most able. The Watcher can't stand
: the presence of thinking beings. That's why he worked
: so hard to recover the Dream of Unlife, and why he
: surrounds himself with thrall; he wants his army to be
: essentially a mindless extension of his own body. The
: Deceiver, on the other hand, gets his kicks from
: tricking or forcing other intelligent beings to do his
: bidding. So you wouldn't expect the two of them to get
: along anymore than your average chess grandmaster gets
: along with your average monster truck enthusiast
: (please, nobody write in saying they know a chess
: grandmaster who loves monster truck rallies.)
That and the deciever was light during Connacht's reign, the Watcher was dark during Connacht's reign. Maybe the Deciever was the one who ultimately defeated the Watcher?
: So why would The Deceiver join the Dark? We know that it
: was at least partly forcible; Balor "bent him to
: his will." But I think initially The Deceiver
: served him voluntarily. Remember how Shiver taunts him
: with "Will you bow to anyone who claims the
: throne of the Cath Bruig?" This suggests to me
: that Myrdred considers any social order better than
: none, that he's willing to fight for anyone if he
: thinks they can unify a large portion of the world, no
: matter whether their regime is benign or malign. This
: makes him very similar to the Trow, who, like the
: Romans they're modeled on, consider a powerful and
: authoritarian state to be virtuous by definition. The
: Trow don't switch sides simply out of practical
: motives of self-preservation; they do whatever they
: can to further law and order. They served Balor
: because they knew he'd destroy all extant states, and
: they hoped to at least create an empire of their own;
: then they refused Soulblighter and were persuaded to
: ally with Alric because they saw in him a champion of
: civilization who had a chance of winning. The
: "game" they devised to test the humans in
: "With Friends Like These" was one of
: strategy, after all, not simply strength and courage
: in battle. They were testing whether ordinary humans
: (not just avatara) were civilized enough to be able to
: think abstractly instead of just attacking anything
: that moved. That's why they get so peeved if you just
: start attacking them at the beginning of the level;
: you obviously don't have the slightest ability to
: construct a complex plan of attack. Anyway...
I think's Shiver's comment was made because The Deciever followed Connacht while he was still good. And I think the Trow were just pissed off that Connacht (the light) destroyed their civilization. But I would assume that after Balor and Alric's little conversation in the fortress, they realized that Balor=Connacht.
: When Balor first attacked the empire and Myrdred realized
: that he was certain to triumph, he offered his
: loyalty, hoping to hasten the transfer of power and
: help Balor unify the entire world under his own reign.
: By the time he realized that Balor sought "not to
: conquer but to destroy," and that serving him was
: only hastening the collapse of civilization, it was
: too late and Balor was able to forcibly ensure his
: servitude. Myrdred's fascination with mind control
: was, I think, a function of his (mostly unconscious)
: rebellion against Balor's control. He hoped that if he
: could become skillful enough at manipulating minds, he
: could use his powers on himself to break his
: conditioning.
Hmmm... interesting. Maybe the Deciever (known from here on forth as "the D" And I think the the Watcher should be called "the W", but who listens to me anyway?) knows about the cycle and all that stuff. So he joins up with the side that is winning. And he knows that if Muirthemne is taken by the light, the tables have turned and he joins up with the light.
Maybe he already knew mind control before joining Balor. Who knows, maybe the Orgre revolt was masterminded by The Deciever in an attempt to weaken the Trow. Or maybe not.
: Here's a couple of tidbits from the manual that have
: nothing to do with what I've been talking aboul, but I
: just noticed them and I think they're interesting. #1:
: Maeldun, it says, was only "severely
: wounded" at Bagrada near the end of the Great
: War. So apparently he did survive the war, although
: presumably he died of his wounds shortly thereafter.
: Alric wasn't the only surving Avatara.
I think he died. After all, once he lost Bagrada, he'd probably run to Madrigal and die there from whoever took the town.
#2: The Kildaer
: family was supposed to have been destroyed by the
: Fallen during the Great War; 60 years later someone
: comes back claiming to be the new Baron. Does this
: mean one or more of the Kildaer children were kept
: alive and raised by the Fallen Lords? If so, was
: Shiver the wet nurse? How much would you pay me not to
: ever bring up that image in your minds again? I don't
: know if anyone thinks these are worth discussing, but
: hey, I hijacked this discussion so I deserve to get
: snubbed.
Or maybe the baron was an imposter. My suggestion is much more... mentally pleasant.
#3: Why fight the D? If the D was being forced to fight for Balor, why kill him instead of convincing him to help kill the remain Fallen after Balor's death?
