:let me try to explain why I think
: mine's still a bit more plausible (no, the explanation
: isn't that I'm stubborn and egotistical, convincing as
: that may seem), by carefully and objectively analyzing
: your theory. Okay, I'm just going to dig up anything
: which could possibly count against it and throw it all
: at you. But I *could* just say, "Ha! Everything
: in your post actually supports my theory!" and
: leave it at that, so count your blessings. :)
Enumerated and double-checked. Lay on.
: To start with, does the game really support the idea that
: Fallen Lords can be blown apart and then resuscitated?
: We actually have no *confirmed* cases of anyone being
: killed and then revived in their same body. GURPS says
: The Deceiver *probably* received a fatal blow from the
: Watcher, but it doesn't say whether it was
: blown-to-bits fatal or slashed-an-artery fatal. Given
: the possible restrictions GURPS suggests for the Extra
: Life ability (body relatively intact, head still
: attached), it was most likely the slashed-an-artery
: kind, with relatively little damage.
An excellent point, though the sheer number of near-death survivals is astounding. We never see what happened to SB after the Devoid blew up, but we know it was enough to incinerate everyone else there and he was standing right at the lip--even if he turned into crows on the spot, wouldn't the crows be incinerated? "He has survived worse", the narrator says of the poisonous cave fumes in the Forge--I'm assuming this means being disintegrated by the blast and still managing to walk away. Shiver's death explosion was nothing by comparison (and yes I know I'm comparing the D to SB with no reason to do so).
: You were probably thinking of Balor and The Head, though.
: Now, it isn't really clear that Balor survived
: decapitation. That line about "don't listen to
: anything his head says" might refer to an earlier
: plotline, or (more likely) might simply be a joke
: referring to The Head and its bad advice (as someone
: here suggested recently--I forget who, but
: statistically speaking it was probably either Chris or
: Charon. :) Certainly Balor's head doesn't move or talk
: or do anything to suggest it's alive, and it looks
: good and dead in the pre- and post-game pics.
Actually, I myself posted something to that effect. I still think Balor's head is alive. Otherwise why bother? Someone thinks the head and the body can be put back together or they wouldn't go to this trouble--same with the drawing and quartering, mixing with salt, etc.
: As for The Head, GURPS suggests that it's either a
: genuine god, or the product of a powerful necromantic
: spell. Notice that it's necromantic, not
: healing-based. The Head is either a god or an undead
: being.
So maybe the good folks at Heron Presbyterian know a few necromantic spells. Necromancy isn't just for Thrall--there's a big difference between say a ghast and a shade, and there are probably even better states of undeath--does GURPS say whether the Deceiver is NOT Undead? Does it say anything about his death and subsequent resurrection?
: I should point out, too, that The Deceiver was in a lot
: worse shape after Shiver's death than Balor or The
: Head. Not only was he decapitated, but all his limbs
: flew off too. Plus each body part probably took quite
: a bit of damage--an explosion powerful enough to rip
: one's head and limbs from one's torso doesn't usually
: leave said head, limbs and torso unscathed. So I think
: your theory requires that The Deceiver be better at
: surviving damage than any other archmage, including
: the Leveller himself.
Good point. No comment.
: On other assumption you must make--you suggest that the
: Heron Guard heroes should be able to accomplish some
: pretty amazing feats of healing. But from their combat
: abilities and flavor texts, it seems to me that
: they're called heroes because of their fighting
: skills, not their prowess in medicine. In fact, such
: dedicated fighters would probably be less practiced in
: healing than their brethren--there's only so much time
: in the day, after all, and you can't dedicate your
: life both to combat and to medicine. Therefore, for
: this theory to work, I think you have to postulate
: that, for reasons unknown, these two Herons happen to
: be capable of medical feats obviously unattainable by
: any other healer (if healers could restore victims of
: even "minor" lethal injuries like stab
: wounds, the Light would do a lot better in its wars.)
I think these guys are better all around. They carry a lot more roots, for one thing. They didn't bother to send a Jman hero with the Five Champions, which always bothered me. Why wouldn't you send a medic along with the crack team, guys you would definitely want kept alive? This is not a tangent: Alric can be considered an "Avatara Hero", agreed? That's because he's the best "all-around example of the Avatara Ideal". Why not the same for these HG Heroes? Don't forget that a couple of weeks earlier these guys were plain vanilla Jmen, who probably had a good hundred years to study up on their battlefield medicine. Sorry to belabor this one, but would you suggest that the dwarf hero isn't as good at laying satchel charges, or the bowman hero at shooting fire arrows?
: Switching sides for a moment, I must say that your theory
: explains one of the more curious aspects of the Myth
: game--the fact that, no matter how many of your units
: die (provided enough survive to win), when you get to
: the next level you've got a full complement of troops
: again, even when there's no plot-supported way you
: could get reinforcements (as in
: "Relic"-->"The Summoner"). Your
: theory would imply that the Herons are able to
: reanimate even those soldiers who were blown apart or
: turned into Crispy Critters by Fetch, so that they can
: fight for you on the next level--but the trauma of
: death damages their memories, so that their combat
: experience drops to zero. And why do the new guys have
: different names if they're just the old ones revived,
: you ask? Well, they forget their names too, and one of
: the principal forms of entertainment for battle-weary
: Myth soldiers is the renaming of recently-dead
: comrades. "Hi, we just brought you back from the
: dead. Your name was I.P. Freely. What, you don't
: remember that?"
: Back to my side...
: There's a few points which actively count against your
: theory--each minor, but I think they add up.
: 1. Myrdred and his champions confronted Shiver way the
: hell out in the wilderness somewhere. It's pretty
: unlikely that they could have returned his bits to
: civilization before a few days went by, at which point
: he'd start smelling pretty bad and probably wouldn't
: be salvageable. If they were able to get back quickly,
: you'd expect to see some of the champions fighting
: Soulblighter alongside Alric, which we don't.
They could be too busy back at Heron Presbyterian. Also, they're a lot closer to Muirthemne then they are to Tharsis.
: 2. Soulblighter was unable to flee on the last two levels
: because Myrdred was "in possession of part of his
: being." Now, I don't see that someone who's lying
: in pieces on an operating table can be said to
: "possess" something except in an extremely
: abstract sense ("If my head was still attached to
: my body was still attached to my arm, I'd be able to
: take this crow out of my pocket!"). I would think
: that the "possession" as described here
: would require the possessor to be alive, conscious,
: and able to physically or magically hold on to the
: thing.
Interesting point, but I don't think it has to be Myrdred in direct possession of the thing. I think as long as SOMEBODY has it in their pocket, SB can't shapeshift. It's dead, anyway, so maybe that's all that's necessary.
: 3. Check out the postgame pic for "Shiver." Are
: they rushing frantically about, snatching up Deceiver
: bits and jamming mandrake roots up every available
: orifice? Not at all. They're gaily burning Krid
: corpses. Even Seanchaidh, the Deceiver's faithful
: Warlock sidekick, isn't looking particularly rushed or
: perturbed (not that warlocks are famed for their
: variety of expressions). It looks to me like they've
: already ceased to worry about Myrdred's fate--which is
: explained in my theory, since he's already popped out
: from behind a bush and said, "Surprise! It was a
: double all along and you were on Candid Camera and I
: secretly replace Seanchaidh's mana with Folger's
: Crystals!" and the champions said "that
: Myrdred, wotta wild & crazy guy" and went
: about their business.
Maybe the pic happens after the balloon has taken the body away and they're all loopy from the hard work they put into sewing the D back together. I dunno. How does Alric get his hands on Balor's head after the Last Battle (see above thread)? The post game pics are, I think, an artist's rendition of things that happened a long time ago. I'm not sure they're all that reliable (as opposed to the cutscenes).
: 4. Presbyterianism does not exist in the Mythworld, hence
: there can be no Heron Presbyterian Hospital. This
: utterly and completely annihilates your theory.
Whoops. I guess you win.
: And there you have it. My reasons for disbelief. I don't
: expect you to accept them and abandon your theory
: either, but perhaps we've reached an understanding.
I think we certainly have. It is fun to argue with you. ;)
: On a completely different note--tell me more about Cu
: Roi! I've always been interested in weather-control
: effects and perhaps I can help if anything needs to be
: fine-tuned.
See thread below.
: --SiliconDream
--Dave. GG, SD!
