: What I was suggesting is that it was Balor's death that
: contributed to the Deceiver's defeat at the Stair of
: Grief and the loss of his scepter, not what happened
: after. My idea is entirely possible--no evidence
: either way.
Well, no. Evidence my way. The sceptar was noted several times as the source of power for the Deceiver. Once it was returned to him, he sprang back to life. Convincing enough for me.
: Call it what you want, but they're all pretty damn good
: reasons (You yourself say that it's
: "speculation...based on facts." I'd say
: that's the definition of evidence).
I can say Hitler had brain problems because he drove his Nazis to exterminate human lives. That is "speculation based on facts". It is in no way the truth or true evidence.
: 1. Alric says he
: learned the info "by chance," implying it
: wasn't as a direct result of someone giving him info.
: Making a deal doesn't happen "by chance."
Again, I'll go back to the theory that the Deceiver *deceived* Alric into thinking he saw Balor.
: 2. The Deceiver would tell Alric to stay away from the
: Watcher's arm, reassuring him that he would take care
: of the Watcher himself. Or they would come to some
: agreement whereby they wouldn't fight over it.
The Deceiver cloaked himself as Balor, no deal was made. The Deceiver still went after the arm but lost it to the Legion. The Deceiver, not being allies with the Legion, pushed after the arm and once it became apparent the Watcher was on both their trails, the Deceiver turned around and sacrificed his own army so the Watcher could not get his arm back.
The D did this to keep the arm out of the Watcher's hands (or hand, for that matter) and keep the possibility alive of the Watcher dying in the coming months.
: 3. If they were secret allies, Alric wouldn't let his
: troops vanquish the D at the end of the Great War.
: You'd think he'd go to great efforts to ensure the
: safety of his ally, given both that it is the moral
: thing to do, and given that the D is a powerful ally.
*If* they were allies, Alric was way out in the East and he would have no control over a smaller band of Legionaires were doing. They found the D, had no instruction to keep the D alive, and chased after him, the D plunged into the river and was presumed lost.
: 4. If they were allies, Alric would have rescued the
: Deceiver from the glacier SOMETIME in that sixty year
: period, before he absolutely had to, again, because
: it's moral and becaue the D is a powerful ally (and,
: no, the D wasn't staying there because he liked
: it...if you wait long enough in the mission "The
: Deceiver," the D gets smashed by mauls--he really
: was comatose).
One word for the mauls : GAMEPLAY.
As for the other parts... its possible that the D's being frozen in the ice was not known by Alric. Or, Alric and D were not allies, which was only one of my three theories.
: 5. Alric would be a little peeved at his "ally"
: upon finding that killing Balor didn't really make the
: Fallen Lords powerless, as the D had said it would
: (this point only applies if you're right about the
: info being misinformation, and you might be right).
Again, they weren't allies. And... if they were allies, then Alric would know the truth behind killing Balor. Perhaps he knew this... after all, Shiver and the Watcher were already dead. The only Fallen he would have to worry about was SB, and he would have the D's help.
But, ally-theory aside, they weren't allies and so the information could have been false.
: 6. The D would be a little peeved at his "ally"
: for having taken so long to rescue him from the ice.
They weren't allies. We'll trash the ally theory, but the theory of the Deceiver slipping alric some info is still alive, and the theory of the D taking on the image of Balor is not out of the question.
Balor would have never known if the D personally interrogated Alric in a tent or somewhere alone, where he could create the mirage or wear the armor, and no one else would know. I said before that Balor was perhaps on his way to meet the Deceiver and possibly dispose of Alric or drag him back to Rhi'Anon. The Deceiver let Alric go by then. Alric was his last hope.
To which I
: first ask you, do you believe Balor was present?
No.
: Surely you must think Balor wasn't, because if he was,
: he wouldn't let Alric get away. If Balor was present,
: the D would know that Balor wouldn't let him escape,
: so the D wouldn't even bother slipping Alric this
: info.
Good point. I don't think Balor was present, no.
: So, you must believe that Balor wasn't there, and that
: the D himself let Alric escape. We've already talked
: about whether Alric was allowed to escape. I still
: don't see any convincing ev...Remember what I've said:
: Playing Light v Dark on the Last Battle, the dark
: always wins, as opposed to Balor, whom you can beat on
: the solo levels, so Balor certainly isn't perfect
: because Myth players manage troops better than he
: does.
Gameplay. EVERY level is beat-able and much easier for the Dark on L vs D.
He simply made a mistake in not guarding
: Alric--or, to put it another way, Bungie is making it
: possible to win.
Wouldn't that then be gameplay also? Something you fight me on, also.
Also, there's evidence that Alric is
: not being allowed to escape...if your five champions
: die, you next see post-game art depicting Alric slain
: by Dark forces.
That means nothing. The story is linear because we are viewing it from the future. Alric kills the Leveller, that's how the story goes. He couldn't die in the desert because the story doesn't go that way. Bungie is speculating on what would happen, and remember the story was not fleshed out as much as it is now. Many things in Myth and Myth 2, in terms of story, are obsolete, so to speak.
The post-game image is also motivation.
And, in a thread that's now vanished
: from sight, I responded to your linearity arguments.
: You never answered me. So, if you want to keep pushing
: it, you'll have to read the last messages I posted in
: that string.
I read your message and a few months back had the same argument. I said that everything that happened in Myth, on the winning side, happened and nothing could affect that. It's the nature of the story and game. The story is linear. If it wasn't, then everytime you lose a level there should be an alternate path to victory or defeat. Or at the least a cutscene showing how the war turned out. There is only *one* path to take, and that takes winning. Losing is not an option and whatever happens when you lose is not apart of the story.
We look back at the Great War now, 60 years ago, and see that Alric was rescued. There is no say "Well, Alric could have died" because it never happened. Look at it as a story, not a computer game.
: But, OK, let's say hypothetically you're right--the
: Deceiver was Alric's captor, he
: "accidentally" slipped some info to Alric
: without making a pact. In that case, here are the
: problems.
: 1. I've already noted this many times, you still haven't
: answered. Why would the D do this? It's very risky.
: Alric might not pick up on the D's hint, whatever it
: is--to make it really explicit would make Alric
: suspect something. Also, the D knew there was a
: possibility that Alric might die in escaping,
: exemplified by the many ways there are to lose in
: "The Five Champions" and "Out of the
: Barrier." So, my point is, rather than create
: this entire facade, why not just make a deal with
: Alric? (And, no, I'm not arguing that's what happened,
: I still believe my six points). He could tell Alric
: "I am an Avatara who has been bound against my
: will. Kill Balor and I will help you." Alric
: would believe this because Myrdred was an Avatara, and
: it's practically the truth. As a further gesture to
: prove his sincerity, the D could then, literally, let
: Alric go. He could then tell any story he wanted to to
: Balor--something along the lines of "these five
: guys came and paratrooped in and rescued him, I just
: wasn't expecting it!" He could even create a
: whole mess of dead undead to complete the illusion,
: but there's no reason that Balor would come inspect
: the site anyway. If you think that the shades might
: have reported to Balor, no, because if the Deceiver
: controlled the army that captured Alric, then the
: shades would be controlled by the Deceiver.
The Deceiver took the image of Balor. The Deceiver allowed an easy escape for Alric so his words would live to see the Legion. The Deceiver hoped the Legion would go straight for the the nskae's head, which they intended to do, and leave the body to fight and die amongst themselves.
The Deceiver would have lived but he sacrificed his army to stop the Watcher and allow the transportr of the arm to a safer area where it could be put to use. Perhaps, after the Watcher had clashed with the Deceiver, the D met with Alric (after all, he goes unnoticed for *months* and suddenyl appears trying to pass over the Cloudspine. Anything could have happened in those months) but that's not important right now.
: Now, for #2. If Balor wasn't present at the site of
: Alric's imprisonment, and the D didn't disguise
: himself (you quite publicly dropped your
: "cloaking theory"), why would Alric say he
: had been imprisoned by Balor??? Why would he say he
: had been interrogated by Balor???
Well, I never dropped it, just disgarded it for my other two for the time being. I'm ressurected it for now.
: No, didn't mean to imply that. The three things that I
: mentioned were what I believe to be the three things
: that Balor is able to force the Lords to do. In
: addition, I believe the nature of the bond itself
: makes them dependent on him for power, where once they
: had been independent.
: Obviously, what I wrote was not conclusive evidence. It
: doesn't really matter anyway. It's clear that some
: sort of bond exists between Balor and the rest--even
: if he can't force them to do much, it's still possible
: that they're dependent on him.
It's clear that they were not dependant on him. No evidence supports this (and I'm not attacking you, there is little evidence for *anything*).
: Well, if you want to push your "deal" theory,
: you'll have to answer my six points, no matter how
: much you don't want to. If you want to push your
: "slipped info" theory, you'll have to answer
: the two points I just brought up above.
I don't have to do anything, but I answered them nonetheless. Now, as I suspect, you will create some sort of "points" list for the the Deceiver took on the image of Balor. Be my guest.
Chris
