: Interesting notes on this: The Deceiver's first response
: implies that he's allied with Alric for his own
: purposes (ie to get rid of Soulblighter and Shiver).
: It also implies that he was allied with Connacht and
: whatever other emperors he was allied were also for
: his own purposes. Keep in mind he has a history of
: betraying allies, so he must have done it before the
: Great War, probably back when he was an avatara.
Couldn't the first betrayal she referred to be his defection from the Avatara (perhaps partly forced) to Balor's side? GURPS gives no mention of any other side-switching, other than his return to the Light.
Further, The Deceiver's relation to Alric doesn't bear *that* much on his relations to earlier emperors; Alric a) is neither a legal candidate for emperor nor the popular choice of the people of the Cath Bruig, and b) grew up knowing The Deceiver as evil. It wasn't strange that The Deceiver served the lawfully-ruling emperors, back when he was an Avatara; it *was* strange that he would go out of his way to validate a Light hero as emperor when he's spent the last few centuries as a Fallen Lord. That's all the "strange bedfellows" comment means in reference to The Deceiver, IMO. It doesn't necessarily imply that his relationship with earlier emperors was self-serving (although you certainly can legitimately suspect that simply from observing his personality).
: The second part of his response is equally interesting.
: It implies that Ravanna also has a strange alliance in
: order to get revenge. The alliance he speaks of is
: obviously the one with Soulblighter. I would guess
: this would be odd because they used to be enemies back
: when Damas worked for Connacht, since she's an ancient
: evil and all. This would also tend to contradict the
: theory that Shiver and Ravanna are seperate people and
: Ravanna was impersonating Shiver. There never was any
: real evidence for that theory anyway, but I suppose
: I'm a fine one to talk after that stupid theory I
: promulagated before. If this is so, there would be
: nothing particularly odd in this alliance. This could
: boost the Damas and Culwyeh used to do it theory as
: well.
But Damas is also an ancient evil. I realize that the pregame info is somewhat suspect these days, but I'd note that Soulblighter's being a "reincarnation" of Damas is given as fact, but as a theory Alric's developed after noting that they seem to be the same person. Since he only knows of the tales of Damas in Connacht's time, and of the current Soulblighter, he'd naturally believe that Damas was born as a good guy around Connacht's time, and was later reborn as a bad guy, just like Connacht. The Deceiver, however, is old enough to know Damas personally from Connacht's time and before it, so if Damas was covertly evil even then he'd know about it.
The behavior of Damas when searching for the artifacts of power certainly seems to suggest that he was a baddie. Are we really to believe that the Total Codex and Tramist's Mirror--a book and a mirror, of all things--could not be destroyed? And that, if he really wanted to destroy them and failed, he'd hide them away instead of bringing them back to the far more powerful Connacht so *he* could try to destroy them? It seems likely to me that Damas was already secretly augmenting his personal power, preparing to rise as a Fallen Lord in the coming Dark age.
I'd also note that Balor's public ethical history is identical to Damas' (that is, the history of Damas that you and Alric agree on); he was a great hero turned bad. I don't see how Shiver and a former lieutenant of a great hero would make particularly "strange bedfellows," when she already spent a century or three working with that former great hero himself.
So I take the Deceiver's comment as (surprise, surprise) supporting my theory that Shiver and Ravanna are different people. Damas was always bad, and his interest in bringing Shiver back indicates that they were always allies. But he had some long-standing feud with Ravanna (you can certainly imagine Balor's devoted lieutenant being suspicious of Ravanna, who supposedly served Balor but was so secretive and independent) and so the two of them make "strange bedfellows".
: As for who's she's getting revenge on, it can't be the
: Deceiver, since she joined with Soulblighter before he
: turned up. Therefore, it must be Alric or the light in
: general.
Agreed.
: The section from the end also contains much interesting
: information. We know they've had problems in the past,
: but it's not clear whether it was when he was an
: avatara or during the great war. It's also not clear
: whether she gets mad based on him calling her ugly, or
: calling her Ravanna. My money's on the ugly, since he
: already called her Ravanna, and she's already mad
: about that or possibly what he was insinuating about
: her relationship with SOulblighter. Ugly broke the
: camel's back, to use an already overused phrase.
I can't decide one way or the other, but I'd lean (again, big surprise) toward her being mad about him saying "Ravanna" again. After all, if saying it once made her mad, why wouldn't saying it twice make her *really* mad?
: If she wasn't really Shiver, I see no reason for her to
: attack him at this point. She should have the sense to
: know she can't win. However, vanity is Shiver's
: weakness, so she could fall for such a thing.
Why should she have such sense, even if she isn't really Shiver? The Deceiver is *good* at what he does. She's a fellow Fallen Lord, and she's packing a Shade and a big pile of Myrkridia. How could she know that Phelot had been converted? Conversely, I don't know that Shiver's vanity would make her more vulnerable to The Deceiver's wiles. As far as I can tell it's centered around her appearance, not her abilities. She'd enter a beauty contest completely assured that she'd win, but she might not enter a battle with the same assurance.
: He also taunts her that while she was the most powerful
: sorceress around at one point, she's been reduced to
: being a lackey for a guy who's about to lose. So
: basicalyy, he hits her with a trple-whammy. She's not
: beautiful anymore; she not powerful anymore and he
: knows her secret. This is what goads into doing a
: dumb-ass thing like attacking him.
Agreed.
: Phelot was obviously bound before a Murder of Crows.
: Since Shiver didn't have him then, it explains why she
: didn't suspect anything. It also shows that the
: Deceiver can convert Shades, though it takes extra
: effort, and the converted unit can hide it very well
: afterward.
Or Phelot might simply have agreed to betray Damas and Ravanna because The Deceiver convinced him that the Light was going to win, or because The Deceiver pointed out that Damas was planning to destroy all life, which Phelot, a would-be dictator like most Shades, didn't really want. It might have been persuasion rather than forcible conversion.
: Also, once he kills Shiver, she's out of the way, and
: Soulblighter's defeat is imminent. His revenge is
: complete, and it's time for him to make his exit.
: Boom!
I still (this isn't an argument to anything you say, just a comment) don't get why GURPS basically ignores this. Did The Deceiver simply reform his body and say "Surprise!" Did the heroes leave his remains, only to discover later that an unharmed Deceiver had reappeared, refusing to answer any questions about how he survived?
: I think he does have some loyalty to Alric/the Cath Bruig
: though, as his actions before the Wall don't make any
: sense otherwise. I don't think it was a matter of
: wanting to kill Shiver himself, since he has no
: problem letting Alric kill Soulblighter.
I agree that he's loyal, though not really for this reason. Shiver's (or Ravanna's, it doesn't matter what theory is correct here) comment of "I've said this before, Myrdred," suggests that they've openly sparred in the past, as he may not have with Soulblighter. I think he and Soulblighter basically just ignored each other (with a bit of mutual contempt), he and Shiver/Ravanna didn't like each other, and he and the Watcher hated each other. So he'll let Alric kill Soulblighter, he wants to kill Shiver himself, and he'll go out of his way to kill the Watcher even when they're on the same side and in the middle of a war.
--SiliconDream
