: First, I'm pretty sure (can't find my Myth I CD) that the
: pre-level text says he was exhausted specifically from
: interrogation. And you give absolutely no reason Alric
: would fake exhaustion in front of the Five Champions
: (he has a hidden agenda too?? Maybe he's really the
: leader of the Fallen Lords!...not) And, yes, read your
: history, it WAS the Light that vanquished the Deceiver
: and stuffed him in the ice. Read the entry to
: "The Stair of Grief."
I've read it, it says nothing of Alric killing or ordering the killing of the Deceiver. Here is the exerpt you are referring to:
"Twelve Motion Jeweled Skull says he was last here sixty years ago, fighting alongside the likes of Durak and Turgeis with Burning Steel. They caught The Deceiver and the remnants of his army in this very defile and here destroyed them. "
Hmm...sounds to me like the Watcher destroyed the Deceiver's army and a Legion force stumbled across the Deceiver and his terribly weakened force. They would not know of a allied relationship between the D and Alric so they would naturally attack the Deceiver and his army.
As for your claim that Alric was exhausted from the interrogation, this from "Out of the Barrier" :
"It wasn't until they turned to escape, leading the barely conscious and unresponsive Alric, that the rescue became a thing of legend."
There is not one mention of the interrogation in this journal entry, nor does it blame his exhaution on it. It is not revealed to us until "The Road North" that Alric had been interrgoated by Balor.
As for your other comment, I'll say it again, Get GURPS.
"If Tierces triumphant returned as Moagim, victor of and in death, and if Balor the last Leveller was Connacht, greatest hero of all, how does the Dark's stunning set-back in the Great War fit in the even great cycle?
The scholars whisper, search the faded lines in their musty volumes, and cast anxious eyes towards their archmage emperor..."
He's obviously not trusted by all and is an interesting character.A common theory around here is that Alric is the true Leveller (perhaps a rebirth of Moagim), but perhaps you missed that debate, eh?
: If Alric and the Deceiver had planned things together,
: Alric would consider him an ally, and 1. Would not
: stuff him in the ice
Alric didn't, his troops did. I don't think Alric kept tabs on all of the Legion's troops, especially after the volcano erupted.
or 2. You'd think he'd rescue an
: ally just in case a new evil should arise? What was
: Alric doing, keeping him in storage? Wouldn't the
: Deceiver be a little peeved his "ally" had
: taken so long to free him from the ice? Theory #1 is
: dead.
Theory one is not dead, stop being so damned pompous, you show a lack of class when debating. Remember, the Deceiver may have had more control of himself then others think. Plus! Like I've said countless times, the Deceiver was attacked by the Watcher, something he did not take in account when planning future events. The Watcher caught him off guard and some band of Legionaires destroyed his remaining forces. If Alric was allied with him, he had no idea what was going on, but I've said that Alric was most likely not allied with him.
: All right, fine, you'll just have to explain to me
: why--if the Deceiver intended to help the Light--he
: didn't bother to enlighten Alric. Just noting his name
: (which was given to him by Balor, anyway) doesn't
: explain away every weird thing he does.
We can't explain it, what Bungie has given us does not allow a lot of background information. Personally, I think the Deceiver wants to ascend to the throne of Cath Bruig, so perhaps enlightening Alric would not be the best option. Plus, the Deceiver knows better than to trust ANYONE with his plans.
: Fine, you'll have to tell ME what you think the
: Deceiver's motive is for feeding Alric false
: information as per your Theory #2.
To get him going after Balor! I've said this many times. By giving him false info, he changes Alric's focus in the war. now, the Legion will set off determined to go straight for Balor.
: What? He wants a return to help the Cath Bruig? So you're
: saying he DOES want to secretly help the Light...so I
: ask again, couldn't he tell Alric his plan instead of
: going behind his back, interrogating him to the point
: of exhaustion, feeding him false information, and
: almost getting him killed in the escape?
He never interogated him to the point of exhaustion, jeez. Where are you getting that from? The Deceiver has been and probably still remains loyal to the Cath Bruig empire. That's been said in the Myth text.
: Look, we've hit a dead end in logic, so I'm just going to
: ask you this--isn't it POSSIBLE that Alric's captor,
: whoever he is (and we both know I think it's Balor)
: really didn't want him to escape alive, but simply
: failed through the heroic and creative efforts of the
: Light?
Sure, anything is possible, but logically they would guard an enemy much better.
: Exactly my point. The Light uses a ploy to exploit
: Balor's weakness. Balor COULD have easily destroyed
: the Light if he'd just stayed indoors, but the Light
: knew just what to do to beat the odds--just like they
: did in "The Five Champions." Heh, here's
: another piece of evidence that Balor ain't perfect:
: the Light sends a couple thousand troops against half
: a million at Rhi'Anon. Balor should have suspected
: something was up...it's not like Alric to suicide.
: Heck, he should've kept, say, ten thousand troops just
: to hang around HIM. But Balor didn't
: because...surprise surprise, he messed up.
Balor didn't anticipate Alric sneaking behind Balor's main force to confront him from his flank.
: OK, you're finally introducing some new evidence. 1. The
: Watcher's weakness: I think any sorcerer would know
: that a piece of a wizard's body can be used against
: him. There's no reason this sort of weakness is unique
: to the Watcher. It's never even implied. 2. The
: location of the Eblis Stone: Absolutely NO reason to
: believe the Deceiver had to divulge this info to Alric
: (no good reason that he would know it, either)...Alric
: could have been hunting down this artifact for a
: while, or might have already had it in his possession
: and stored away somewhere. Also, BIG PROBLEM: The D
: would only give Alric these two pieces of info under
: your Theory #1, that Alric and the D were working
: together. I think I pretty soundly disproved that
: theory above. If you're really leaning on Theory #2,
: how the heck could the D slip Alric this free info
: without Alric thinking something was way fishy?
: Oh yeah, and certainly some of the Heron Guards are at
: least one thousand years old.
: About my theory that Balor might have been waiting on the
: Cloudspine: he simply might have thought that the
: Light had no other way to get to the Barrier, or might
: have been expecting the Light as soon as the snow
: melted (which could happen not too far in the future.
Hmm, the Light would have to wait until April to cross the Cloudspine, the snow wouldn't melt for five months. Balor also didn't know of Tharsis erupting.
: Or he might have thought the Light would chance it
: anyway, since Alric was so important to them.
No, they would lose too many and would be annihilated from all the chokepoints.
: Look, I'm all into secret plots--I believe the Deceiver
: is still alive, don't I?--but I don't buy every
: crackpot theory.
Heh, the Deceiver being alive is hardly a secret plot. It's spelled out in GURPS. You don't buy any theory, you think everything is how it appears to be.
: Now, obviously there's some confusion going on. So, do me
: a favor. Spell out your theory again, in whole:
: exactly what Balor knew of the capture, exactly what
: the nature of the relationship between Alric and the
: Deceiver was, what the Deceiver told Alric, how he did
: it, and what the Deceiver's ultimate goals were.
: Then, lay down all your evidence for your theory.
The Deceiver captures Alric. He sends word of his sucess to Balor. The Deceiver, knowing this is his chance, takes the role as Balor and gives Alric false information. In turn, as original form, he reveals to Alric that the Watcher's weakness is his bones from his arm, perhaps by accident or through conversation. Afterall, the Deceiver shouldn't be too secretive with that information, he doesn't care who kills the Watcher, as long as he's dead. Now, somehow the Deceiver tips off Alric as to the location of the Eblis stone. Balor sends his reply back that he wants Alric brought back to Rhi'Anon, but the Deceiver allows the rescue of Alric to take place by backing off his forces. Alric escapes.
The Legion gets the arm and the Watcher attacks the Deceiver by surprise. The Deceiver's army is destroyed and a band of men from the Legion frind the Deciever and some of his troops and kill them, the D plunging into the river.
Alric plans a new attack. They will cross the Cloudspine in the Spring and plan an attack on Balor. Alric is convinced the information he received is correct so his determination to defeat Balor is incredibly high. But, the Watcher relocates his army in the Dire Marsh, putting himself between the Legion and Balor. Alric now has to use what the Deceiver previously told him or let out by "accident". Alric kills the Watcher with the bone and news of the Eblis stone reaches him, followed by its transportation to Alric before the Last Battle. Alric uses the Eblis stone and kills Balor, but the Deceiver and Soulblighter don't die, and its obvious the information was false. But there is nothing else to worry about...yet.
So you see, the Deceiver set this plan in motion way before the Last Battle. He planned on getting the arm and destroying the Watcher himself, but if by chance the Legion got the arm, he wouldnot attack and the Watcher, but instead move across the Cloudspine and attack the Province, allowing the Watcher to cross the Cloudspine eastwardly who the Deceiver knows will defend Balor. The Deceiver lets out the Watcher's weakness because he feels that if he doesn't get the chance to kill the W, the Legion will surly do it on the way to kill Balor.
But, the Watcher attacks the Deceiver and now his hopes of the Watcher's destruction lie in the hands of the Legion. Alric was so convinced he had to kill Balor that he felt he had to go through the Watcher and kill him., which led right into the Deceiver's plans. Even while the D was immobilized, his greatest enemy fell, and that is a tribute to his genious. Finally, Balor dies with the use of the Eblis stone, which I'm sure the Deceiver knew the location of, he was apparently close to Connacht and the empire of old, and supposedly Connacht knew where these artifacts lie.
Finally, the Deceiver hopes with Balor's death will come about the rebirth of the Cath Bruig empire, something he loves and is loyal to, perhaps even is interested in becoming Emporer.
: Since there is no proof that the latter two have anything
: to do with the Deceiver, and the first piece of
: evidence might just be an example of the good people
: at Bungie trying to make an exciting and interesting
: game, I remain unconvinced. Especially considering you
: haven't laid out a motive for the Deceiver that is
: either understandable or makes sense.
Revenge and a restoration of the empire.
