: Here's where we differ: when you say the word discovered,
: i think you're saying someone physically found
: something (and if that's an incorrect assumption you
: can just say so), i.e. the Watcher went into The Deep
: and found the runestone or whatever of unlife there.
: However, I believe that it means the Watcher was the
: first one able to COMPREHEND the
: spell/runestone/dream/etc, not just the first to
: locate it. This means he had to figure it out on his
: own, whereas all the mages afterwards had someone to
: teach it to them. It takes much less intellectual
: ability to memorize something then it does to make
: your own realization.
Ah, I see. It's certainly possible, though I don't really see where the "realization" would necessarily come in. Other mages managed to comprehend the Dispersal Dream, the Binding Dream, the Confinement Dream, and whatever other ones have been discovered; why would the Dream of Unlife be particularly hard to pick up on? Heck, someone (Trow or Callieach, probably) had to figure out about the Dream before the Watcher did, or he wouldn't have even known to go get it.
But certainly I can't prove that it's not more difficult to comprehend than other Dreams. I just think that, given how hard it was to reach physically, we don't really need another reason why the Watcher was the only known mage in the last few thousand years to retrieve it.
: We also have different translations of the same word
: here. You believe the "SB's experiment" line
: to mean that SB performed the experiment that led to
: the creation of the original soulless (and by
: extension all those that followed). I take it as
: meaning that SB had to experiment a little to learn
: how to make his own soulless once Balor/the Watcher
: was no longer around to provide him with any.
Well...the full text of the quote is: "One of Soulblighter's most successful experiments with reanimation, it is hardly surprising that he has brought more of them along this time. "
Note the "this time." That means he's done it before, no? IMO it's very hard to read that as Soulblighter experimenting so that he can bring along the same undead he used to get from someone else.
: And SB
: could've gotten that name simply because he's not a
: very likeable guy who kills people and destroys there
: homes. And perhaps Culwyeh is not the maker of the
: wights, but is rather a being the Watcher modelled the
: wights after (but this is just pure guessing)
Yeah, but then he'd be Murderer and Home-Destroyer. :-) Admittedly, not all the Fallen Lords have obviously descriptive names, but the Deceiver certainly Deceives. Shouldn't Soulblighter blight some souls?
Culwyeh could be somehow associated with Bahl'al, yes--neither GURPS nor Myth III agree, but they may not have had any official info on the subject. Still, Bahl'al is never directly linked to any undead save Thrall, the only undead we know he created--and he's got at least four different textual links to Thrall, so I take that to indicate that he didn't have much hand in the development of the other undead.
: Again, Balor provided the fallen only with strategic
: leadership and some undead minions he created. He
: provided no personal power to the Fallen Lords
: themselves.
This is never actually stated (as I mentioned last post); we just know he didn't provide all the Fallen Lords' power. Given that we know powerful mages can pipe energy to their minions at a distance--as with the Shades--it still seems very likely.
: And I'm not sure if the head "charmed" all
: those guys or if it simply tricked them (coulda just
: thrown up some worthless illusion spells and the guys
: fighting for him coulda thought they were fighting
: thrall).
Hardly worthless, if he can pull it off on thousands of soldiers for an extended period of time...that's just as good as a charm, IMO.
: Most of the mages in the Myth series seem far too
: prideful to fight alongside someone who was just
: trying to kill them (tho this does work fine for
: Myrdred. He is THE DECEIVER, after all). And as far as
: getting shades goes...well, they are undead, and
: something had to bring 'em back, and there's only one
: dream (that we know of) that can do that, and it's the
: Watcher's. So they can really both get shades
Actually, almost all the big guns work alongside someone who was just trying to kill them. That's half the fun of winning--you get to either brainwash or kill-reanimate all your enemies and make them work for you instead.
Do we know that the Watcher created all the Shades? Every Fallen Lord--including Myrdred, who probably doesn't get many presents from Bahl'al--seems to have a few. It seems more likely to me that either most Fallen Lords knew how to make 'em, or Balor alone did.
That aside, though, my point was that while most ways of creating a powerful unit (Dwarf, Fetch, Shade, whatever) must be fairly time- and energy- consuming, if you've got the Binding Dream you can just let someone else do it and then come along and say "You're mine now, ha!" Which is a useful trick.
: But Mydred and Bahl'al CAN jump right in and fight
: (Myrdred' got his staff, SB's got his glaive,
: Bahl'al's got his sword, though we never see how good
: he is with it). And as far as how long it takes to
: prepare spells, well, the only spells we see are in
: MII from summoner, shiver, deceiver, alric, warlocks,
: jmen/herons (sorta), fetch, and krid giants (sorta),
: and they all take very little time at all for
: preparation. And SB's true power lies in the strategic
: movements of entire armies, so you could argue that it
: actually takes hime longer to get ready then Myrdred
: or Bahl'al
Heh, I guess. I still think SB can put his glaive through your skull (after charging you at 30 mph.) faster than Myrdred can cast a spell--and unlike Myrdred, SB doesn't run out of mana. I may be over-influenced by GURPS, though.
: So how did the Watcher "barely" survive? Seems
: to me he duked it out up close with the D and just got
: severly wounded whereas others woulda died. I know, I
: know, they had their armies with them, but something
: tells me thrall n' soulless (and the occasional fetch)
: wouldn't last to long vs. the Watcher.
Both Light and Dark had minor mages too, remember...we just never met 'em. And heck, seven waves of Thrall apparently softened up Mazzarin, so I'm sure the Watcher could be overwhelmed in a similar fashion.
But I don't think we can really decide how such a battle went based on the in-game Deceiver's abilities. In "reality" I'm sure his Cloudkill isn't absolutely unbeatable (SB sure didn't mind charging him) and I'm sure he has a lot of other spells up his sleeve, just like the Watcher did. They probably dueled magically while simultaneously trying to overwhelm each other with their armies.
Which would make a damn cool map, incidentally...one of you Watcher fiends should whip it up. :-)
: Thanks, it's nice to have that cleared up.
: I had always wondered myself how B's death meant the end
: for the dark. Seems to me there'd just be slightly
: less control (since B didn't control them that well
: anyway) and a lot of the undead would fall apart. But
: it certainly seems like the Fallen Lords each had more
: then enough power to raise their own armies. Perhaps
: the mere fact that he was a leveller meant that his
: presence helped the dark in general, I dunno. However,
: the only Fallen Lord's power during Balor and
: post-Balor we clearly see is SB's, and he seems a good
: deal more powerful after Balor's demise.
Actually, immediately afterwards Soulblighter's a marshmallow. Remember The Great Devoid? :-) When he comes back in M2, he's spent 60 years studying magic in his secret temple and doing whatever else to "return to his former power." It's quite possible that M2 Soulblighter's no more powerful a fighter than he was in TFL. He's just a better mage, because now he's channeling his own power instead of Balor's and knows what to do with it.
Shiver, likewise, is pretty clearly weaker, and I'd argue that Myrdred is too--but then we loop back to an earlier post in the thread. :-)
Even if Balor only kept most of the undead going, that's still a huge loss to the surviving Fallen Lords. No one in Myth--not even Balor--can take on an army without one of their own. And reanimation takes time, not to mention outfitting the zombies. I'm sure the Light wasn't about to give give the Lords time to rebuild their armies.
: Whoa, that was a really good argument. Your theory about
: why the Deceiver left it there also seems like exactly
: like something he would do.
Thanks. :-) It's just part of the overall argument for The Head being Myrdred's pawn, as put forth in various previous threads. (Which doesn't eliminate the question of The Head's own identity, of course.)
: I remind you that those arrows had the Watcher's own
: power within them. And hey, detonating a Fallen Lord's
: entire power supply still counts! :)
Then right back atcha...we don't know what the Watcher would have done if Shiver blew up in his face. :-) Honestly, I think he could have weathered it a little better than Myrdred...he's tougher and wears armor, if nothing else. Myrdred's forte is versatility rather than raw might.
