: Right, but that doesn't really testify to the Watcher's
: own powers--the first guy to discover something isn't
: always the best at it. The only thing we know from the
: Watcher's pioneering the Dream of Unlife is that he
: was powerful enough to do what was necessary to find
: it (like not breathing for nine days.)
Here's where we differ: when you say the word discovered, i think you're saying someone physically found something (and if that's an incorrect assumption you can just say so), i.e. the Watcher went into The Deep and found the runestone or whatever of unlife there. However, I believe that it means the Watcher was the first one able to COMPREHEND the spell/runestone/dream/etc, not just the first to locate it. This means he had to figure it out on his own, whereas all the mages afterwards had someone to teach it to them. It takes much less intellectual ability to memorize something then it does to make your own realization.
: The Soulless were "one of Soulblighter's most
: successful experiments" from the Great War, and
: as far as we know the only real reason why he'd be
: called Soulblighter! (Although Myth III retconned this
: by having Soulless around before Soulblighter.) Wights
: are called "the Messengers of Culwyeh, a name now
: forgotten by all but the most devout pupils of
: Necromancy." Whoever Culwyeh was--GURPS suggests
: that it's Shiver, while Myth III has it be a
: necromancer from the Wind Age or Age of Reason--it's
: probably not another name for Bahl'al.
We also have different translations of the same word here. You believe the "SB's experiment" line to mean that SB performed the experiment that led to the creation of the original soulless (and by extension all those that followed). I take it as meaning that SB had to experiment a little to learn how to make his own soulless once Balor/the Watcher was no longer around to provide him with any. And SB could've gotten that name simply because he's not a very likeable guy who kills people and destroys there homes. And perhaps Culwyeh is not the maker of the wights, but is rather a being the Watcher modelled the wights after (but this is just pure guessing)
: Possibly, but you wouldn't think he'd bother then. I
: think it's more likely that he could convert a lot
: more rapidly with Balor's power backing him than he
: can in M2. After all, the Head alone charmed
: "thousands" of the Light into joining him.
Again, Balor provided the fallen only with strategic leadership and some undead minions he created. He provided no personal power to the Fallen Lords themselves.
And I'm not sure if the head "charmed" all those guys or if it simply tricked them (coulda just thrown up some worthless illusion spells and the guys fighting for him coulda thought they were fighting thrall).
: Plus, unlike the Dream of Unlife, the Binding Dream is a
: great defensive tool because you can recruit enemies
: even while they're running at you waving swords.
: And--if you're Myrdred, at least--you can even recruit
: Shade-level foes with it.
Most of the mages in the Myth series seem far too prideful to fight alongside someone who was just trying to kill them (tho this does work fine for Myrdred. He is THE DECEIVER, after all). And as far as getting shades goes...well, they are undead, and something had to bring 'em back, and there's only one dream (that we know of) that can do that, and it's the Watcher's. So they can really both get shades
: Those Berserks were falling at his feet *after* he was
: petrified, though, so his swordsmanship has nothing to
: do with it; they died to his army. (Though I'm sure he
: could have pureed a Zerk or ten himself if he hadn't
: been ambushed.)
Whoops, sorry, it's been a while since I played that mission so my memory's not entirely accurate. Thanks for pointing that out.
: I dunno whether SB's glaive is ordinary or not. Point is,
: though, that if some Avatara jumped out of nowhere and
: attacked SB, I think he'd do a better job of fighting
: back than Bahl'al or Myrdred. By and large he doesn't
: have to marshal forces or prepare spells...he just
: dives right in and does the dirty work himself. So by
: one standard, you could consider him more
: "powerful."
But Mydred and Bahl'al CAN jump right in and fight (Myrdred' got his staff, SB's got his glaive, Bahl'al's got his sword, though we never see how good he is with it). And as far as how long it takes to prepare spells, well, the only spells we see are in MII from summoner, shiver, deceiver, alric, warlocks, jmen/herons (sorta), fetch, and krid giants (sorta), and they all take very little time at all for preparation. And SB's true power lies in the strategic movements of entire armies, so you could argue that it actually takes hime longer to get ready then Myrdred or Bahl'al
: GURPS says it explicitly; outside of that, we see her
: in-game in M2 and can compare her to the TFL comic.
: TFL Shiver had "quickly" defeated several
: Avatara and would have finished Rabican off with one
: spell if he hadn't played the Vanity card. M2 Shiver
: isn't nearly this powerful...her Whisper Dream is a
: joke compared to the TFL version.
But perhaps the Watcher coulda done all that too. Unforetuneately we never get to see how he'd fare against what Shiver faced.
: A single Soulless can finish The Deceiver off with ease.
The sad thing is this actually happened to me when I wasn't paying attention. Good point tho.
: :-) I would imagine the Watcher survived more by
: staying out of range of Myrdred's Cloudkill, than by
: just walking into it and taking it like a man.
So why did the Watcher "barely" survive? Seems to me he duked it out up close with the D and just got severly wounded whereas others woulda died. I know, I know, they had their armies with them, but something tells me thrall n' soulless (and the occasional fetch) wouldn't last to long vs. the Watcher.
: Myth GURPS is the GURPS sourcebook written by Gene
: Seabolt for the Mythworld. It was edited, checked,
: playtested and released by Bungie, and also seems to
: have drawn somewhat on the design docs. Owing to the
: fact that it has a couple obvious errors--the most
: glaring, omitting Myrdred's M2 death--its overall
: validity is a matter of some argument. On the other
: hand, some of its other info has been replicated in
: Myth III, suggesting that they both drew on official
: sources. So...you make the call. I prefer to consider
: it the next most reliable thing after TFL, M2 and the
: comic.
Thanks, it's nice to have that cleared up.
: It's certainly true that the Fallen Lords' power
: "was not derived from Balor," but that
: doesn't mean he didn't give them a boost. Otherwise,
: it's very hard to understand how Balor's death was the
: doom of the Dark, exactly as Alric expected it to be.
: At the very least, the lesser undead in the Fallen
: Lords' armies must have been crippled or destroyed.
I had always wondered myself how B's death meant the end for the dark. Seems to me there'd just be slightly less control (since B didn't control them that well anyway) and a lot of the undead would fall apart. But it certainly seems like the Fallen Lords each had more then enough power to raise their own armies. Perhaps the mere fact that he was a leveller meant that his presence helped the dark in general, I dunno. However, the only Fallen Lord's power during Balor and post-Balor we clearly see is SB's, and he seems a good deal more powerful after Balor's demise.
: What other options are there? As the narrator says,
: "it should have remained there forever." It
: didn't. Balor didn't do it (not saying he couldn't,
: maybe he just didn't bother), the Watcher didn't do
: it, and the Light knew nothing about it. Barring some
: really powerful moles, it had to be Myrdred. (Which
: makes sense--since it was either Connacht or a buddy
: who imprisoned the Watcher, a former Avatara would
: know more about the magics used than anyone save,
: perhaps, Balor himself.)
: Why did he leave the arm? Well, this'd still be a big
: question even if he *didn't* free it himself. He just
: happened to have a bunch of minions patrolling around
: trying to find it, but failing to notice it sitting on
: a pile of dirt in plain sight? (Yeah, I know,
: gameplay.)
: Two options. One, whatever spell he used to uncover the
: arm wasn't line of sight.
: Two--as I've suggested before--Myrdred may have wanted to
: use the Light as his fall guy to make it less obvious
: that he was going after the Watcher. Very convenient
: to have the Light "unexpectedly" turn up and
: steal the arm--if Myrdred wins it back he gets points
: for loyalty; if he fails, the Light will doubtless use
: the arm against the Watcher for him.
Whoa, that was a really good argument. Your theory about why the Deceiver left it there also seems like exactly like something he would do.
: OK, so if you kill a Fallen Lord and detonate her entire
: energy store while Myrdred's looking the other way,
: you can take him. :-) I think that outclasses some
: lousy enchanted bone arrows, though.
I remind you that those arrows had the Watcher's own power within them. And hey, detonating a Fallen Lord's entire power supply still counts! :)
