: The point is that none of those mages would know it if it
: weren't for The Watcher's actions.
Right, but that doesn't really testify to the Watcher's own powers--the first guy to discover something isn't always the best at it. The only thing we know from the Watcher's pioneering the Dream of Unlife is that he was powerful enough to do what was necessary to find it (like not breathing for nine days.)
: I agree with The
: Watcher not coming up with the stygian knights (you'll
: notice I didn't list them) because in the MII manual
: it explicitly states that they're rare because only SB
: can make 'em. But how do you know The Watcher didn't
: come up with soulless, wights, etc. They're undead,
: which would link them to the dream of unlife. Just
: because it says in the MII glossary that SB n' Balor
: were good at making these things doesn't mean they
: were the only ones good at it.
The Soulless were "one of Soulblighter's most successful experiments" from the Great War, and as far as we know the only real reason why he'd be called Soulblighter! (Although Myth III retconned this by having Soulless around before Soulblighter.) Wights are called "the Messengers of Culwyeh, a name now forgotten by all but the most devout pupils of Necromancy." Whoever Culwyeh was--GURPS suggests that it's Shiver, while Myth III has it be a necromancer from the Wind Age or Age of Reason--it's probably not another name for Bahl'al.
: Perhaps there is just greater demand for a dream that can
: ressurect hordes of undead then for a dream that
: converts one unit at a time, so more mages are willing
: to devote time and energy to learning The Watcher's
: dream.
: The deceiver can convert small contingents with ease, not
: entire armies (he probly spent a long time getting all
: those guys you fight in shadow of the mountain)
Possibly, but you wouldn't think he'd bother then. I think it's more likely that he could convert a lot more rapidly with Balor's power backing him than he can in M2. After all, the Head alone charmed "thousands" of the Light into joining him.
Plus, unlike the Dream of Unlife, the Binding Dream is a great defensive tool because you can recruit enemies even while they're running at you waving swords. And--if you're Myrdred, at least--you can even recruit Shade-level foes with it.
: Well, we never really got to witness this in-game, but
: seeing as the Watcher's statue had a sword held high
: over his head and how the journal writer said tons of
: berserks fell at his feet, it would seem the watcher
: is a fairly skilled swordsman. And i'm not entirely
: convinced SB's glaive is any ordinary glaive.
Those Berserks were falling at his feet *after* he was petrified, though, so his swordsmanship has nothing to do with it; they died to his army. (Though I'm sure he could have pureed a Zerk or ten himself if he hadn't been ambushed.)
I dunno whether SB's glaive is ordinary or not. Point is, though, that if some Avatara jumped out of nowhere and attacked SB, I think he'd do a better job of fighting back than Bahl'al or Myrdred. By and large he doesn't have to marshal forces or prepare spells...he just dives right in and does the dirty work himself. So by one standard, you could consider him more "powerful."
: Really good point. But still notice that all of these
: individuals have a good deal of power to fuel their
: immortality. Like I said, it's nothing unique, but
: it's not something EVERYONE can do.
Right, but no one's arguing that the Watcher's not more powerful than the average human. :-)
: SB is just a great tactician who happens to be pretty
: good with a halberd. One entire-army scales, I agree
: that soulblighter is the best of the fallen. But one
: on one, I think ANY of the other fallen could whip SB
: with their magic. As far as shiver goes, where does it
: say her ressurected form is much weaker?
GURPS says it explicitly; outside of that, we see her in-game in M2 and can compare her to the TFL comic. TFL Shiver had "quickly" defeated several Avatara and would have finished Rabican off with one spell if he hadn't played the Vanity card. M2 Shiver isn't nearly this powerful...her Whisper Dream is a joke compared to the TFL version.
: It IS impossible to beat Myrdred one-on-one for everyone
: except The Watcher (as evidenced by his surviving
: their fight). Just play any level where Myrdred's
: present and make him fight a lone unit. And....I'm not
: really sure WHAT myth GURPS is let alone what it says
: about Shiver, so i'll leave that alone.
A single Soulless can finish The Deceiver off with ease. :-) I would imagine the Watcher survived more by staying out of range of Myrdred's Cloudkill, than by just walking into it and taking it like a man.
Myth GURPS is the GURPS sourcebook written by Gene Seabolt for the Mythworld. It was edited, checked, playtested and released by Bungie, and also seems to have drawn somewhat on the design docs. Owing to the fact that it has a couple obvious errors--the most glaring, omitting Myrdred's M2 death--its overall validity is a matter of some argument. On the other hand, some of its other info has been replicated in Myth III, suggesting that they both drew on official sources. So...you make the call. I prefer to consider it the next most reliable thing after TFL, M2 and the comic.
: According to the MII manual, Balor's death didn't cause
: the fallen lords to lose personal power reserves as
: the nine were wrong in their assumption about their
: power coming from Balor. As far as The Watcher being
: defeated at the height of his power, I again remind
: you he was still only defeated by himself (well, his
: own bone. But you know what i'm saying)
It's certainly true that the Fallen Lords' power "was not derived from Balor," but that doesn't mean he didn't give them a boost. Otherwise, it's very hard to understand how Balor's death was the doom of the Dark, exactly as Alric expected it to be. At the very least, the lesser undead in the Fallen Lords' armies must have been crippled or destroyed.
: Am I to believe that the Deceiver is going to go through
: all the trouble of breaking an insanely powerful
: confinement dream (one Balor and the Watcher together
: couldn't break) and then leave the arm on the ground?
: The one chance he has against his arch-nemesis, and he
: doesn't pick it up? I'm not sure how the arm got free,
: but it sure wasn't the deceiver.
What other options are there? As the narrator says, "it should have remained there forever." It didn't. Balor didn't do it (not saying he couldn't, maybe he just didn't bother), the Watcher didn't do it, and the Light knew nothing about it. Barring some really powerful moles, it had to be Myrdred. (Which makes sense--since it was either Connacht or a buddy who imprisoned the Watcher, a former Avatara would know more about the magics used than anyone save, perhaps, Balor himself.)
Why did he leave the arm? Well, this'd still be a big question even if he *didn't* free it himself. He just happened to have a bunch of minions patrolling around trying to find it, but failing to notice it sitting on a pile of dirt in plain sight? (Yeah, I know, gameplay.)
Two options. One, whatever spell he used to uncover the arm wasn't line of sight.
Two--as I've suggested before--Myrdred may have wanted to use the Light as his fall guy to make it less obvious that he was going after the Watcher. Very convenient to have the Light "unexpectedly" turn up and steal the arm--if Myrdred wins it back he gets points for loyalty; if he fails, the Light will doubtless use the arm against the Watcher for him.
: Unforetuneately, we don't get to see how he would do
: against an Eblis stone. As far as the legions best
: tho, listen to the journal before the mission where
: the watcher finally dies an' it'll say how tons of
: berserks died at his feet. And though the arrows
: may've been the best way, as far as we know they were
: also the ONLY way.
Again, thirty berserks died at the hands of his *army,* not the man himself.
: Uh, he was disabled pretty instantly when Shiver's gray
: sparkly thingy fell from the sky and exploded right
: next to him.
OK, so if you kill a Fallen Lord and detonate her entire energy store while Myrdred's looking the other way, you can take him. :-) I think that outclasses some lousy enchanted bone arrows, though.
--SiliconDream
