: True enough. Of course, this spell has been successfully
: adopted by zillions of other mages--and the Watcher
: (to our knowledge) only invented Thrall, while other
: necromancers came up with Soulless, Stygians, Wights
: and so forth. So the Watcher's imagination seems to be
: a little limited. :-)
The point is that none of those mages would know it if it weren't for The Watcher's actions. I agree with The Watcher not coming up with the stygian knights (you'll notice I didn't list them) because in the MII manual it explicitly states that they're rare because only SB can make 'em. But how do you know The Watcher didn't come up with soulless, wights, etc. They're undead, which would link them to the dream of unlife. Just because it says in the MII glossary that SB n' Balor were good at making these things doesn't mean they were the only ones good at it.
: Whereas Myrdred's signature Binding Dream doesn't seem to
: ever have been copied very successfully, much less
: improved upon (unless perhaps by Balor). Which might
: indicate that it takes more personal talent and power
: to use than the Dream of Unlife.
Perhaps there is just greater demand for a dream that can ressurect hordes of undead then for a dream that converts one unit at a time, so more mages are willing to devote time and energy to learning The Watcher's dream.
: True. But this is an advantage the Watcher shares with
: The Deceiver--both can raise armies with ease, and
The deceiver can convert small contingents with ease, not entire armies (he probly spent a long time getting all those guys you fight in shadow of the mountain)
: thereby overwhelm foes they'd lose to one-on-one.
: Effectively, it makes them much more
: "powerful"...but of course they require more
: prep time to gather their resources than someone like
: Soulblighter, who can just grab the nearest glaive,
: stride out and start hacking away.
Well, we never really got to witness this in-game, but seeing as the Watcher's statue had a sword held high over his head and how the journal writer said tons of berserks fell at his feet, it would seem the watcher is a fairly skilled swordsman. And i'm not entirely convinced SB's glaive is any ordinary glaive.
: Well, really, who *hasn't* achieved immortality? Mazzarin
: and Myrdred and Shiver did (though like Soulblighter
: Shiver can be considered undead rather than immortal).
: Every Heron's immortal and the Warlocks might be too.
: Alric doesn't look like he's gonna die of old age any
: time soon. Not to mention Shades and the Trow, undying
: in their own way.
Really good point. But still notice that all of these individuals have a good deal of power to fuel their immortality. Like I said, it's nothing unique, but it's not something EVERYONE can do.
: I wouldn't have been surprised if--during TFL--Shiver or
: Soulblighter could have gone one-on-one with either
: The Deceiver or the Watcher and beaten them. Shiver
: was severely weakened after her resurrection in M2,
: and Myrdred only defeated Soulblighter because of his
: recent stint as a human battery in the Tain Shard.
SB is just a great tactician who happens to be pretty good with a halberd. One entire-army scales, I agree that soulblighter is the best of the fallen. But one on one, I think ANY of the other fallen could whip SB with their magic. As far as shiver goes, where does it say her ressurected form is much weaker?
: That's always the problem with fighting Myrdred or
: Bahl'al...it's not impossible to beat them one on one,
: but if they know you're coming they'll have an army of
: thousands and a bunch of cunning tricks and ambushes
: primed by the time you get there. Which, again, makes
: them effectively more powerful--but I'll buy GURPS'
: argument that TFL Shiver could whip anyone else except
: Balor one-on-one if they didn't know about her vanity
: weakness.
It IS impossible to beat Myrdred one-on-one for everyone except The Watcher (as evidenced by his surviving their fight). Just play any level where Myrdred's present and make him fight a lone unit. And....I'm not really sure WHAT myth GURPS is let alone what it says about Shiver, so i'll leave that alone.
: The Deceiver was only defeated *after* Balor died,
: however, when he lost much of his army and his
: personal power reserves. The Watcher was defeated at
: the height of his Balor-enhanced power.
According to the MII manual, Balor's death didn't cause the fallen lords to lose personal power reserves as the nine were wrong in their assumption about their power coming from Balor. As far as The Watcher being defeated at the height of his power, I again remind you he was still only defeated by himself (well, his own bone. But you know what i'm saying)
: Also, the Watcher didn't free himself; Balor rescued him.
: I know, one of the flavors says, "The Watcher
: only escaped by tearing off his left arm," so we
: could argue about exactly how it happened--maybe Balor
: uncovered the Watcher and woke him up and the Watcher
: did the rest himself--but the fact remains that he
: needed Balor's help.
Again, good point. I forgot the role Balor played in that. And he's probably slightly more powerful then my zerks carrying a staff.
: And something else to think about here--the Watcher
: couldn't break the Confinement Dream on his arm, and
: apparently, neither could Balor (or at least he didn't
: bother to.) But SOMEONE was able to free the arm. And
: since it happened right around the time The Deceiver
: came to Silvermines, who do you think it was?
Am I to believe that the Deceiver is going to go through all the trouble of breaking an insanely powerful confinement dream (one Balor and the Watcher together couldn't break) and then leave the arm on the ground? The one chance he has against his arch-nemesis, and he doesn't pick it up? I'm not sure how the arm got free, but it sure wasn't the deceiver.
: Well, I doubt The Watcher would fare well against an
: Eblis Stone, or even against the Legion's best.
: (Myrdred was only chased down and finished off by a
: coalition of heroes like Durak and Turgeis with
: Burning Steel.) The problems were, as always, his
: enormous army backing him up and the Legion's being on
: the run in the wilderness without supplies or time to
: prepare. So the bone arrows were simply the best thing
: Alric could come up with to stop the Watcher *fast*
: before his army could intervene.
Unforetuneately, we don't get to see how he would do against an Eblis stone. As far as the legions best tho, listen to the journal before the mission where the watcher finally dies an' it'll say how tons of berserks died at his feet. And though the arrows may've been the best way, as far as we know they were also the ONLY way.
: And incidentally, no one ever came up with a single
: weapon that could disable The Deceiver instantly. Not
: even shooting his missing eye at him. :-)
Uh, he was disabled pretty instantly when Shiver's gray sparkly thingy fell from the sky and exploded right next to him.
