Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?

Posted By: Seraph (adsl-66-123-200-150.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
Date: 5/27/2003 at 9:18 p.m.

In Response To: Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? (Superfoborg)

: Basically... I look at the universe as a system, a big
: program more or less, whose function is to have as
: many beings happy as possible, in all places, at all
: times. ("Happiness" which I define as
: "known contentment" - having what you want
: in close, observable contrast to the possibility of
: not having what you want, so that you appreciate it
: most). The time part is important, because if
: everybody in the universe wants to do something, and
: it will make them all happy now, but will make most of
: them miserable for all eternity later, then it's still
: a "bad", dysfunctional thing to do.

Ethics question for you then.

What happens if a sadist [presumably a bad thing] tortures [presumably a bad thing] a machoist?

Both enjoy it.

Is that "Good"?

Seraph the Non-neutral

Messages In This Thread

• hey
  Gothmog (ool-43562621.dyn.optonline.net) -- 5/22/2003 at 9:06 p.m.
  • Re: hey
    Zandervix (cache-rc01.proxy.aol.com) -- 5/22/2003 at 9:49 p.m.
    • Re: hey
      sumone (dial-209-148-113-171.sonic.net) -- 5/24/2003 at 12:39 a.m.
  • Re: hey
    Superfoborg (term1-6.vta.west.net) -- 5/23/2003 at 1:55 a.m.
    • Re: hey
      Gothmog (ool-43562621.dyn.optonline.net) -- 5/23/2003 at 4:14 p.m.
      • So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
        Seraph (adsl-66-120-160-84.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 5/24/2003 at 3:15 a.m.
        • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
          Martel (ppp-189-166.28-151.libero.it) -- 5/24/2003 at 5:09 a.m.
          • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
            Gothmog (ool-43562621.dyn.optonline.net) -- 5/24/2003 at 5:54 p.m.
            • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
              Seraph (adsl-66-120-163-45.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 5/24/2003 at 7:15 p.m.
              • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                Martel (195.110.114.232) -- 5/26/2003 at 12:03 p.m.
                • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                  Seraph (adsl-66-120-160-206.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 5/26/2003 at 2:32 p.m.
                  • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                    Martel (195.110.114.232) -- 5/27/2003 at 4:22 a.m.
              • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                Superfoborg (term2-20.vta.west.net) -- 5/27/2003 at 12:24 a.m.
                • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                  Seraph (adsl-66-123-200-150.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) -- 5/27/2003 at 9:18 p.m.
                  • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                    Superfoborg (term2-2.vta.west.net) -- 5/28/2003 at 12:00 a.m.
                  • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                    Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 5/28/2003 at 1:43 p.m.
                    • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                      Seraph (adsl-64-171-4-240.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 5/28/2003 at 9:35 p.m.
                      • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                        Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 5/29/2003 at 1:02 p.m.
                        • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                          Seraph (adsl-67-122-221-42.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) -- 5/30/2003 at 1:10 a.m.
                          • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                            Doom (207.239.12.200) -- 5/30/2003 at 10:21 a.m.
                            • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                              Gothmog (ool-43562621.dyn.optonline.net) -- 5/30/2003 at 3:47 p.m.
                              • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                                Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 5/30/2003 at 4:02 p.m.
                                • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                                  Gothmog (ool-43562621.dyn.optonline.net) -- 6/1/2003 at 9:55 p.m.
                                  • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                                    Olorin (host81-134-21-57.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/2/2003 at 5:19 p.m.
                          • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                            Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 5/30/2003 at 1:20 p.m.
                            • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                              Seraph (adsl-66-126-231-179.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 5/31/2003 at 12:36 a.m.
                              • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                                Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/2/2003 at 4:45 p.m.
                            • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? *PIC*
                              Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/5/2003 at 10:03 p.m.
                              • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                                Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 3:46 p.m.
                      • Little Shop of Horrors *PIC*
                        Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/5/2003 at 9:48 p.m.
                    • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? *PIC*
                      Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/5/2003 at 9:27 p.m.
                      • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                        Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 1:39 p.m.
                        • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                          Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 4:36 p.m.
                          • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                            Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 6:23 p.m.
                            • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                              Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 8:15 p.m.
                  • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? *PIC*
                    Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/5/2003 at 9:14 p.m.
            • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? *PIC*
              Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/5/2003 at 8:53 p.m.
              • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 8:48 a.m.
        • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
          Superfoborg (term2-20.vta.west.net) -- 5/27/2003 at 12:11 a.m.
        • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
          greygelgoog (172.138.134.67) -- 6/1/2003 at 10:31 a.m.
          • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
            Seraph (adsl-66-120-162-52.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/1/2003 at 4:24 p.m.
            • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
              Olorin (host217-36-199-57.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/1/2003 at 4:47 p.m.
              • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                greygelgoog (AC83911C.ipt.aol.com) -- 6/3/2003 at 9:51 a.m.
                • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                  Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/3/2003 at 7:50 p.m.
                  • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                    Doom (207.239.12.200) -- 6/4/2003 at 10:42 a.m.
                    • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                      Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/4/2003 at 2:45 p.m.
                      • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? *PIC*
                        Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/6/2003 at 1:08 a.m.
                        • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                          Superfoborg (term1-8.vta.west.net) -- 6/6/2003 at 1:47 a.m.
                        • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                          Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 8:55 a.m.
                        • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                          Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 2:06 p.m.
                          • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? *PIC*
                            Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/6/2003 at 4:11 p.m.
                            • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                              Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 4:32 p.m.
                          • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                            Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 4:30 p.m.
                            • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                              Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 6:00 p.m.
                              • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                                Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 8:13 p.m.
                                • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                                  Phil (12-225-9-44.client.attbi.com) -- 6/7/2003 at 3:04 a.m.
                    • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                      Olorin (host81-134-12-171.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/4/2003 at 3:24 p.m.
                      • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                        Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/4/2003 at 5:50 p.m.
                        • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                          Olorin (host81-134-12-171.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/4/2003 at 8:26 p.m.
                          • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                            Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/5/2003 at 11:54 a.m.
                            • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                              Olorin (host81-134-4-75.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/5/2003 at 4:40 p.m.
                              • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                                Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/5/2003 at 7:46 p.m.
                          • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? *PIC*
                            Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/6/2003 at 1:18 a.m.
                  • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                    greygelgoog (AC8B159B.ipt.aol.com) -- 6/4/2003 at 2:40 p.m.
                    • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                      Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/4/2003 at 5:08 p.m.
                  • Well said, sir (NT) *NM* *PIC*
                    Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/6/2003 at 12:53 a.m.
                    • Thanks *NM*
                      Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 3:48 p.m.
                • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? *PIC*
                  Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/6/2003 at 12:23 a.m.
                  • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                    Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 9:23 a.m.
                  • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                    Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 3:20 p.m.
              • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? *PIC*
                Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/5/2003 at 11:05 p.m.
                • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                  Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 9:28 a.m.
            • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? *PIC*
              Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/5/2003 at 10:58 p.m.
              • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 9:30 a.m.
                • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                  Seraph (adsl-66-126-230-224.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/6/2003 at 8:52 p.m.
                  • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this? *PIC*
                    Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/8/2003 at 7:39 p.m.
                    • Yes, I totally botched whatever my point was.
                      Seraph (adsl-66-123-168-192.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/8/2003 at 11:10 p.m.
                    • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                      Olorin (host81-134-17-71.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/9/2003 at 7:05 a.m.
                      • Salvaging some sense out of this mess.
                        Seraph (adsl-66-126-229-12.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/9/2003 at 5:11 p.m.
                        • Re: Salvaging some sense out of this mess.
                          Olorin (host81-134-0-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/9/2003 at 5:34 p.m.
                          • Re: Salvaging some sense out of this mess.
                            Seraph (adsl-66-126-229-12.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/9/2003 at 6:34 p.m.
                    • Re: So, we need a topic...Lets try this?
                      Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/9/2003 at 1:55 p.m.
          • Never!!! *PIC*
            Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/5/2003 at 10:51 p.m.
            • Re: Never!!!
              Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 9:34 a.m.
              • Re: Never!!!
                Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 3:46 p.m.
                • Re: Never!!!
                  Olorin (host81-134-4-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 4:15 p.m.
                  • Re: Never!!!
                    Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/6/2003 at 6:08 p.m.
        • *Gets here late* *PIC*
          Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/5/2003 at 8:45 p.m.
          • Re: *Gets here late*
            Seraph (adsl-66-126-230-224.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/6/2003 at 9:13 p.m.
            • Heh...
              Drunken Ghol (pcp01700673pcs.kodak01.tn.comcast.net) -- 6/7/2003 at 12:29 a.m.
              • It's Called "So We Need A Topic..." *NT* *NM*
                Olorin (host81-134-113-174.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/7/2003 at 6:29 a.m.
            • Re: *Gets here late* *PIC*
              Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/8/2003 at 9:02 a.m.
              • Re: *Gets here late*
                Seraph (adsl-64-171-5-191.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/8/2003 at 5:13 p.m.
                • Re: *Gets here late* *PIC*
                  Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/8/2003 at 6:46 p.m.
                  • Talking some more...and more...
                    Seraph (adsl-66-123-168-192.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/8/2003 at 10:44 p.m.
                    • Re: Talking some more...and more... *PIC*
                      Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/9/2003 at 4:48 a.m.
                      • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                        Olorin (host81-134-17-71.in-addr.btopenworld.com) -- 6/9/2003 at 6:51 a.m.
                        • Re: Talking some more...and more... *PIC*
                          Archer »–)› (AST002-2.msns.sm.ptd.net) -- 6/13/2003 at 3:15 a.m.
                          • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                            Seraph (adsl-66-123-170-245.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/14/2003 at 2:01 a.m.
                          • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                            SiliconDream =PN= (host-66-202-12-108.col.choiceone.net) -- 6/15/2003 at 2:56 a.m.
                            • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                              Phil (12-225-9-44.client.attbi.com) -- 6/15/2003 at 5:34 a.m.
                              • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                                SiliconDream =PN= (host-66-202-12-108.col.choiceone.net) -- 6/15/2003 at 7:37 p.m.
                                • Double post, just like old times. :-) [NT] *NM*
                                  SiliconDream =PN= (host-66-202-12-108.col.choiceone.net) -- 6/15/2003 at 7:43 p.m.
                              • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                                SiliconDream =PN= (host-66-202-12-108.col.choiceone.net) -- 6/15/2003 at 7:41 p.m.
                                • *derails the subthread*
                                  Seraph (adsl-64-171-6-162.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/16/2003 at 6:36 p.m.
                                • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                                  Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/16/2003 at 6:42 p.m.
                            • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                              Superfoborg (term1-24.vta.west.net) -- 6/17/2003 at 1:54 a.m.
                              • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                                SiliconDream =PN= (host-66-202-12-108.col.choiceone.net) -- 6/17/2003 at 11:28 p.m.
                                • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                                  Superfoborg (205.254.241.89) -- 6/18/2003 at 12:09 a.m.
                                • Heya Sili
                                  Iron Duke (zepher.lnk.telstra.net) -- 6/18/2003 at 6:20 p.m.
                                  • Re: Heya Sili
                                    SiliconDream =PN= (host-66-202-12-108.col.choiceone.net) -- 6/18/2003 at 10:10 p.m.
                                    • oh sure, ignore me! :( *NM*
                                      Miguel Chavez (24-90-239-158.nyc.rr.com) -- 6/19/2003 at 9:14 a.m.
                                      • Calls taken in the order they were received. :-)
                                        SiliconDream =PN= (66.202.12.108) -- 6/19/2003 at 2:17 p.m.
                                      • Calls taken in the order they were received. :-)
                                        SiliconDream =PN= (66.202.12.108) -- 6/19/2003 at 2:49 p.m.
                                        • Hmm...
                                          Miguel Chavez (24-90-239-158.nyc.rr.com) -- 6/26/2003 at 9:26 a.m.
                                          • Re: Hmm...
                                            SiliconDream =PN= (host-66-202-12-108.col.choiceone.net) -- 6/27/2003 at 7:29 a.m.
                            • SILLLLLLI!
                              Miguel Chavez (24-90-239-158.nyc.rr.com) -- 6/18/2003 at 7:17 p.m.
                      • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                        Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/9/2003 at 6:11 p.m.
                        • *is in total agreement.*
                          Seraph (adsl-66-126-229-12.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/9/2003 at 6:51 p.m.
                          • Re: *is in total agreement.*
                            Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/9/2003 at 7:57 p.m.
                            • Re: *is in total agreement.*
                              Seraph (adsl-66-126-229-12.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/9/2003 at 8:50 p.m.
                              • Re: *is in total agreement.*
                                Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/10/2003 at 2:32 p.m.
                            • Re: *is in total agreement.*
                              Superfoborg (term1-29.vta.west.net) -- 6/10/2003 at 2:16 a.m.
                              • Re: *is in total agreement.*
                                Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/10/2003 at 2:32 p.m.
                                • Re: *is in total agreement.*
                                  Superfoborg (ip68-6-118-241.sb.sd.cox.net) -- 6/10/2003 at 5:02 p.m.
                                  • Re: *is in total agreement.*
                                    Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/10/2003 at 7:30 p.m.
                      • Re: Talking some more...and more...
                        Ilex (6fe9.yhteys.mtv3.fi) -- 6/15/2003 at 7:39 a.m.
                  • Re: *Gets here late*
                    Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/9/2003 at 3:56 p.m.
                    • Bush and his politics
                      Seraph (adsl-66-126-229-12.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/9/2003 at 5:24 p.m.
                      • Re: Bush and his politics
                        Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/9/2003 at 6:30 p.m.
                        • Re: Bush and his politics
                          Seraph (adsl-66-126-229-12.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/9/2003 at 6:44 p.m.
                          • Re: Bush and his politics
                            Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/9/2003 at 7:40 p.m.
                            • Re: Bush and his politics
                              Seraph (adsl-66-126-229-12.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) -- 6/9/2003 at 8:43 p.m.
                              • Re: Bush and his politics
                                Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/10/2003 at 2:32 p.m.
                                • Re: Bush and his politics
                                  Superfoborg (term2-23.vta.west.net) -- 6/11/2003 at 1:06 a.m.
                                  • Re: Bush and his politics
                                    Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/11/2003 at 7:56 p.m.
                                    • Re: Bush and his politics
                                      Superfoborg (term1-16.vta.west.net) -- 6/12/2003 at 12:51 a.m.
                                      • Re: Bush and his politics
                                        Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/12/2003 at 5:22 p.m.
                                        • Re: Bush and his politics
                                          Superfoborg (term1-12.vta.west.net) -- 6/13/2003 at 12:53 a.m.
                                          • Re: Bush and his politics
                                            Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/13/2003 at 6:50 p.m.
                                            • Re: Bush and his politics
                                              Superfoborg (ip68-6-118-241.sb.sd.cox.net) -- 6/13/2003 at 8:59 p.m.
                                              • Re: Bush and his politics
                                                Phil (12-225-9-44.client.attbi.com) -- 6/14/2003 at 4:47 a.m.
                                                • Re: Bush and his politics
                                                  Superfoborg (term1-24.vta.west.net) -- 6/17/2003 at 1:50 a.m.
                                                  • Re: Bush and his politics
                                                    Phil (static-64-65-138-250.mspcovdsl.eschelon.com) -- 6/17/2003 at 12:37 p.m.
                              • Re: Bush and his politics
                                Martel (lns-p19-9-213-228-44-169.adsl.proxad.net) -- 6/14/2003 at 9:32 a.m.
  • Re: hey
    Doom (207.239.12.200) -- 5/27/2003 at 11:38 a.m.

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