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Let the Debate Begin!
Posted By: Pimpyō (sdn-ar-001ilchicp310.dialsprint.net)
Date: 12/10/1999 at 7:02 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Fallen Lords, Avatara, Lieutenants... (SiliconDream)
: A few things: We can be *sure* that the Watcher is an
: Ancient Evil, because he was imprisoned by Connacht in
: the Wind Age.
Yes, I was just citing another source of information at the time, I was recalling all of it from memory, so the better example of being entrapped under the Cloudspine at Silvermines during the Wind Age slipped my mind.
: The same pre-release info which listed the Fallen Lords
: also listed (according to Forrest's article, at least)
: which ones are ancient evils and which are turned from
: the light. Soulblighter, The Voiceless One and Bahl'al
: are all listed as ancient, while The Deceiver,
: Bonesplitter and The Faceless Man are listed as
: recent.
Yeah, I remember the original website and referred to it often. The problem that I have is how they define ancient. I notice that you made some notes in the next paragraph, so I will move on.
: Now "ancient" might mean pre-Connacht, as
: Bahl'al is known to be--which, interestingly, implies
: that Damas was covertly evil even before Connacht
: arose. Or "ancient" might mean Wind Age or
: earlier, in which case Connacht's mysterious hooded
: lieutenant can't be the Faceless Man, who as a recent
: convert must have arisen during the Wolf Age. I prefer
: the first definition of "ancient evil," for
: no other reason than that Damas' predating Connacht
: and the hood guy being the Faceless Man are both pet
: theories of mine. :)
Now the only problem I have is the Soulblighter/Faceless Man swap. I would hardly consider Soulblighter an ancient evil by any means. He was probably a respected member of the Heron Guard and learned the secrets of immortality from them. He also practiced the black arts so perhaps he used his hidden temple to hide certain artifacts that Connacht wanted destroyed. It just seems unusual that one of Connacht's most trusted lieutenants would be an ancient evil. Perhaps it means overall age, such that since Damas was a Heron Guard of older age, he himself would be considered ancient by Human standards. I think that we should start a thread on this subject since it needs lots of further studies.
: I have no conclusive evidence that Shiver is Bonesplitter
: and not the Voiceless One, but here are all the little
: circumstantial bits. Evidence that Shiver is
: Bonesplitter: she looked like a Myrmidon before
: Rabican toasted her; her vanity; her blitzkrieg,
: Myrm-like "kill'em all and let Wyrd sort 'em
: out" attitude; and her apparent proficiency with
: Myrkridia, the Myth II Dark unit closest to Myrmidons
: in behavior, speed and combat style (and race name,
: for that matter). Evidence that Shiver is not the
: Voiceless One: she had a voice both before and after
: the battle with Rabican; we haven't heard anything
: about Connacht fighting her in the Wind Age, as we
: have with the similarly ancient Watcher; and her
: naivete (I hesitate to call anyone who can explode me
: with a thought "stupid") points to relative
: youth. Any Fallen Lord as thoughtless as the modern
: Shiver would never have survived Connacht's reign.
: Any evidence *for* Shiver being the Voiceless One, other
: than the mention of Moagim? (C'mon, surely you can
: think up some evidence as flimsy as mine.)
Of course I have supportive evidence, but the Moagim one was rather intriguing to me. The Black Company has a powerful female sorceress named Whisper (or something very similar as I have not read the series myself). This seems to relate the association between being quiet like a Whisper and not having a voice. As many of the Fallen Lords are based upon The Black Company characters, it would make sense that this relation exists, especially considering Shiver is the only female Fallen Lord. And to steal some of your evidence (muahahaha), The Myrkridia were originally around long before Connacht became Emporer of the Cath Bruig Empire, so if she has proficiency with them as you stated, then she would have certainly needed to be alive during this time. Since very few living people still remembered them. I do see how she acts very young, but as a woman I guess she relied on her beauty to get what she wanted, thus vanity was her true weakness. Let me know what you think of these thoughts especially.
: Do you think the two absent Fallen Lords were killed
: during the battle with the Cath Bruig empire? They
: don't seem to have died during the war in the West, so
: either they were killed beforehand or they survived
: the war in secret--which seems a little unlikely,
: since if *three* Fallen Lords of the original six were
: unaccounted for, Alric would be scouring the country
: every day.
Hmm... interesting point. We know that it took Balor a while to finally reach the West. So perhaps the Kingdom of Gower held him up for a while. Then there was the Cath Bruig Empire to destroy. So a lot of time elapsed between his uprising and his arrival in the West. Considering how the Light managed to defeat Shiver & The Watcher, it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to consider that the missing two Fallen Lords were defeated earlier in the War.
: Have any 3rd-party scenarios featured these two Lords
: yet?
: -- SiliconDream
Well, if we can finally agree on some ideas I'm sure that Aresō wouldn't mind creating a scenario for us. But seeing how we debate these points multiple times, I don't think that we have anything solid enough for him to use at this point. If we do get enough information, I will let him and the rest of the Creation team know (since I'm still a story consultant for the team).
I am not trying to argue over who is right and who is mistaken, I only care about uncovering the story and the secrets that it holds. So if you can provide some factual information or even speculation based upon factual information please let me know. And as for the Soulblighter and Shiver arguements, perhaps we should debate those two topics as seperate from now on, as they will require lots and lots of specific information.
Sincerely,
Pimpyō
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