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Re: Valar, Sauron and Bombadil.

Posted By: Olorin (host213-122-57-72.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
Date: 5/29/2002 at 2:47 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Tolkien and Silvermines/Moria (Doom)

: This is just my personal opinion (not really based on
: anything, mind you), but I think that Tom is really
: just a strange old man living in Middle-Earth. After
: all, the only reason we have to base the theory that
: he might be more powerful than Sauron on is that the
: ring doesn't have any power over him. My theory is
: that the ring has power over people because it can
: corrupt them, and since Tom Bombadil seems to be free
: of any of what one might call "worldly
: desires" (mb he's a Buddhist), he's probably
: uncorruptable. Therefore, as Gandalf (or sum1, I
: forget; it really stinks that Tom wasn't in the movie,
: don't you think?) points out, the ring has no power
: over Tom, and Tom has no power over the ring... And
: after all, if we were to assume that the reason that
: the ring doesn't have power over him is because he's
: more powerful than Sauron, we'd have to assume that,
: since the ring isn't more powerful than Sauron
: himself, that Tom would be able to have power over the
: ring. It sort of makes sense, don't you think?

: Yes, I know. I guess I was just sorta pointing out it's
: not like this system of castes is ultimate; after all,
: the Valar obviously can't be too much more powerful
: than Sauron, otherwise they would never have allowed
: his evil to spread across Middle-Earth (whether
: they're far off to the west or not) in the first
: place. The force is strong in this one =)

: -Doom 0^)

Ok...firstly, Tom CAN'T be some old man, as he'd have to be over 1,000 years old to remember Arnor and Angmar. Also, Tolkien makes it clear that no amtter how good you are, the Ring will ALWAYS eventually get a grip on you, simply because as men we are incarnate beings and therefore subject to material temptations, whether we like it or not...this was a key part to Saruman's downfall, as stated by Tolkien. Only the Istari and Morgoth were truly incarnate Ainur. Tom, therefore, would logically be a Maia, as he isn't an Elf due to his physical appearance, he can't be a man of dwarf either to have remembered that ancient history, and the Ring has no hold on him BECAUSE HE DOES NOT DESIRE TO HAVE A HOLD ON IT. (Sorry about caps, but don't know how to do italics here.) Thereofre, he is not subject to earthly temptations - the only explation: he is an Ainur. He can't be a Vala, as if he was then he would cartainly be doing a more Gandalf-like role as opposed to relaxing. So he is a Maia.
And Doom...the Valar could crush Sauron with one finger. The reason they don't fight him directly is four-fold: Firstly, any battle between the Good and Evil Ainur has always resulted in huge cataclysms, as their titanic clashes with Morgoth showed. Indeed, they were always reluctant to battle Morgoth in case Arda and the Children of Iluvatar were destroyed in the conflict - and they well could have been.
Secondly, they did not actually know that Sauron had returned. Gil-galad, for one, guessed (Unfinished Tales: That one about the Mariner-King), but nobody knew. He went about disguised as Annatar, Lord of Gifts, claiming to be a Maiar of Aule (which in fact he was), here to help the Elves acheive greatness. Celebrimbor and many others eager for knowledge were blind to the truth. When, in the Second Age, he finally revealed himslef and attempted to ensnare the Elves, they saw through him and War was declared. The Numenoreans however saved the Elves just before they were lost. Then, when Sauron again later in the Second Age revealed that he had returned and declared himself Lord of the Earth, the Numenorean King Ar-Pharazon was jealous, and ~Sauron allowed himself to eb takne prisoner by the King. Once on Numenor, he persuaded the King to abandon the Valar and worship Morgoth, and eventually to assail Valinor itself. The Valar were hardly going to help the Numenorens now, were they? However, they still did help those that continued to follow the Valar (secretly, those who were discovered were sacrificed to Morgoth) at the bequest of Elendil's father. They asked Eru to drown Numenor, Sundering Valinor from Midlle-earth forever, save to the Elves and a few select, and change the shape of the World. This was a punishment to the fallen Numenoreans - Numenor was the Land of Gift, given to them as a reward because of the Edain's brave role in the struggle against Morgoth, and they had now forfeited their right to it. However, the cataclysm also destroyed Sauron's body and ensured that any other he created could never again seem fair to mortals, so he could not pull another Annatar trick.
In the Third Age, they also did not know that he had returned, but sensed an evil presence and so sent the Istari.
This is the third point. Every attampt so far to cushion the Children from evil, though very well-intentioned, had failed horribly. When the Elves were brought to Valinor to avoid Morgoth, it was in Valinor that he sowed strife and caused the Eldar to slay each other and rebel against then Valar, witholidng the Silmarils which could have healed the Two Trees and exiling themselves form Valinor.
The next time, when they intervend by fighting the War of Wrath and gave the Edaian a new paradise-like home removed from the turmoils of Middle-earth...welll, you know that a similar thing happened there aswell.
So instead they realsied that the Children must grow and defeat the evil themselves. Not without guidance, of course, but by their own power and skill. This is what the Istari were sent to do, to unite the races, kindle their hearts and guide them in the War against Sauron. As Gandalf says to the Hobbits when they ask in shock why he will not help them defeat Saruman: ['' = Paraphrase; "" = Quote]'My dear hobbits, do you not understand. After all,'"this is what you have been trained for": to be independant, able to take care of themselves. In other words, to have matured. Direct action would not have allowed this, and the situation would eventually have worsened yet again.
The fourth and final reason, is that I'm pretty sure that at the end of the First Age when some Elves said that they wanted to linger in Middle-earth a while longer, the Valar were sad but let them, but also said that they would not help them again as they had in the War of Wrath: they were on their own.

Except, of course, for the Istari: the Valar's secret weapon that led to Elves, Men and Dwarves defeating Sauron themselves, and thus stopping him for good.

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