: i.e. Rabican survived but Shiver was defeated. Now if she
: was defeated, she would not survive or be able to
: escape before being killed. The reason they say
: "lingers" is as a foreboding message for the
: things to come, i.e. she is resurrected in Myth 2. I
: think it's categorical that she is killed by Rabican.
: Other quotes include this one from TFL Homecoming:
: "Shiver fell on the first night in a spectacular
: dream duel with Rabican, one of the Nine."
: This description of Rabican: "Rabican faced Shiver
: in the battle for Madrigal, casting her down in a
: terrifying dream duel using secrets revealed to him by
: The Head."
: Words like "fell" and "casting her
: down" indicate a hint of her actually dying.
They *can* be interpreted as hints, but the fact is, nowhere does it say she was killed. Although you may not agree with my perspective, you can certainly understand that her 'falling' and being 'cast down' do not have definite meanings, in fact they are very general, broad statements. Many people fall during combat, but they don't have to be killed.
: She definately dies as pointed out by this quote but it
: doesn't state when: "...her spirit disconnected
: from her body, set adrift on the ether..."
: I just wanted to clarify that fact.
That's not a fact, because it is not a statement which can be proven right or wrong [which is the definition of Fact], the knowledge we have isn't enough to make facts from. We don't know about death in Myth, and what EXACTLY happens during death. So then, it is completely impossible to try to understand the mechanics of undeath.
The ether was described in ancient times as a realm in the sky, not necessarily the heavens or any kind of afterlife. The fact that her spirit might not have entered whatever afterlife awaits Myth folks leaves me to believe that she was not killed. Being "killed" and "dying" means the body ceases to work and the spirit leaves it to enter to an afterlife (as GURPS says, the One Dream) but nowhere is it stated that the ether is the afterlife.
So to me, if the ether hasn't been proved to be the afterlife, then shiver wasn't killed. And don't try to tell me that my definition of death is wrong, because death is the thing we know the least about in this world, and the Mythworld as well. Your definition of death is as good as mine. Nothing can be proved except:
Archer's definition of undeath is correct to him because his definition of death differs from mine.
My definition of undeath is correct to me because my definition of death differs from Arch's.
SO: it all comes down to our own definitions of the undefinable.
Which means, this debate cannot be ended because someone will think my definition of death is ridiculous, when in fact there is nothing in Myth proving him right, or proving me right, either.
This quite simply won't end because our definitions of death differ on important levels. And that very definition cannot be proven correct or incorrect, so this means we enter another endless cycle of repeating debate.
::waits to see who is the first person to say my interpretatiuon of death is wrong and his is right because...::
-Welly
