: I'm afraid that in the real world, levels of canon are
: absolutely vital. You can believe that everything
: you're told is either entirely true, or entirely
: false, but you're in real trouble the next time you go
: out to buy a car.
I wasn’t clear, but nor were you. You said that one myth is more canon mythologically than the other, which means nothing except by who proports the myth.
: People are mistaken sometimes, and lying sometimes, and
: telling the truth sometimes. That's how reality works.
I didn’t mean reality.
: Simply that the story of Aeneas started out as one
: not-particularly-popular origin story among a thousand
: others.
Evidence, please.
: And the reasons it became popular in the early
: Imperial period are rooted in Roman politics and
: Vergil's personal life; they have nothing to do with
: historical truth.
Who is saying it is?? It’s a myth. Acceptance of one over another has nothing to do with its “canon”.
: I brought this whole thing up because you listed the
: Roman belief in Troy as a primordial paradise (which
: they didn't believe)
They did in fact, their destroyed motherland from which they sprang.
: as one piece of evidence for
: Atlantis.
I’m tired of debating with you this stuff which you haven’t even read yet. Please, go to http://www.atlan.org and read every piece of information there before you come back and we can further our discussions. And please do it with as open a mind as you can, forgetting our debates here until afterward, by all means. :-)
: If that's not why you listed it, but merely
: for the general "religious cataclyms"
: subject we were talking about earlier, then never mind
: and carry on.
Very well.
: Troy, according to the Iliad, was not an incredible naval
: civilization.
Umm, no? Yes it was, as visible by their greatly-numbered ships and ability to carry hundreds of thousands of men away from the city when it was destroyed.
: It did not sink beneath the waves.
It’s alluded to by Homer in both epics and in the Aeneid. “I looked back on my city as the waves came crashing upon its walls as Poseidon reaped his vengeance.”
: It
: was not a tremendous military power.
Wtf? Then what kept it from being destroyed by the Greeks? They were powerful enough to at least equal the Greeks.
: It was not
: particularly technologically advanced.
You said yourself there were, among, what you believed, where anachronismic things like iron being used for meneal labor yet with bronze for weapons.
: It was a
: wealthy and successful city on the same level as the
: Achaean cities who opposed it.
Oh? Where is a Greek city described in the Illiad?
: Thus the Iliad tells
: us.
: Plato's Atlantis did not worship a mother goddess;
Wrong; the representation of the virginal motherland and the female goddess are very much prevalent.
: they
: venerated a human female whose ancestors sprang from
: the earth,
The earth herself is related to the goddess.
: and who by Poseidon mothered the Atlantean
: race. This is par for the course with Greek
: city-states; virtually all of them had at least one
: divine ancestor and at least one ancestor who sprang
: from the earth, thereby legitimizing their claim to
: the land.
I’m not debating this.
: Homer's Troy did not worship a mother goddess either,
Wrong; Venus.
: except insofar as all Greeks worshipped Hera.
Not Athena by your account?
: She was
: on Troy's side in this particular conflict, certainly,
: but she was not in any way Troy's particular patron
: goddess. I'll grant you, however, that the historical
: Troy most likely venerated a Cybele-variant, an
: Astarte-variant, or both. But this is true for just
: about any culture from Italy to India.
…except for all those cultures that directly worship a father god over the mother (Egypt).
: As for the adornment with precious metals and the general
: power and coolness...yes, yes, this is indeed an epic
: poem. Sparta and Mycenae are described the same way.
Where?
: You will not find many epics about small, ugly cities
: that didn't do anything important. A dizzying number
: of stories from around the world involve
: super-powerful heroes who fought giant monsters, but
: that doesn't mean they're all based on one real
: super-powerful hero who fought a giant monster X
: thousand years ago. Well, except when Captain Marvel
: was thrown back in time and had to battle Vandal
: Savage's Ultrasaur, but that's merely a statistical
: fluke and can be ignored.
Lol.
: I'm allowed to be silly after 2 in the morning.
Aye, ‘tis your namesake, Sili. :-)
: There are no known Greek references to Atlantis before
: Plato.
Obviously not, for the tale of the Atlantean city, or its equivalent, was destroyed by the Greeks through geologic disaster. This is a very old tale, part of which Homer based the Iliad upon.
: Different as I explained above.
: The South China Sea is still very very far from
: "just outside the Pillars of Hercules."
You misquoted; it’s “just beyond the Pillars of Hercules.” Very big difference.
: Plato says he gets his information from the Egyptians. He
: also says that all disease comes from not being a
: vegetarian. He also says that philosophers like him
: are uniquely suited to rule the world. He also says
: that nine thousand years ago (although many scholars
: believe that later copyists slipped an extra
: "0" in that number-
which is absurd since it’s contradictory to more believable evidence
:-an Atlantis 900 years
: before Plato would coincide extremely well with
: Thera's last days)
which means “swept” not “sunken” or “fallen,” as does the meaning of Atlantis.
: Athens was exactly like the ideal
: civilization Plato happens to construct through pure
: reason in his other works.
Not really since the Greeks were at war with the Atlanteans.
: He also says that the sun
: once swung too close to the Earth and burned
: everything up (those wise old Egyptians noticed that).
: Plato says a lot of things, you see. So does Jack T.
: Chick, but we don't listen to him.
It doesn’t discount his story just because he wrote things completely unrelated to it.
: And it's Plato who says that Solon heard this from the
: Egyptians.
Originally, yes, so he then asked the Egyptians himself.
: Or rather, Plato has Socrates listen to
: someone else who says they heard it from their
: grandfather who heard it from Solon. Plato doesn't
: even say Socrates believes it--he only asked to be
: entertained with a story.
That’s a fictional circumstance to allow Plato to tell the story in the Timaeus and the Critias. Did you also notice the Plato was not present during those discussions he wrote down?
: Well, yes. Presumably if you're telling a story about a
: very large flood, it's going to flood everything.
: Oceans, rivers and all. Once everything is underwater,
: you're now on a sea. The point is, people who live in
: river valleys are going to be very interested in
: floods as archetypal disasters in the first place.
They why are the Incas? or the Maya or Aztecs?
In addition to what I stated before, both were situated a short distance from the sea, an enormous plane surrounded it and stretched out to the sea, you still cannot refute the description of orichalcum, among other things.
: I'm afraid all sea level estimates I've seen say
: differently, independent of any leanings I may have
: toward gradualism or catastrophism. Sources?
Oceanographer Bruce Heezen of the Lamont Geological Observatory.
: And don't
: tell me you're a Lamarckian, now.
That I believe environmental changes cause life to adapt? What’s the difference from Evolutionism?
: And I was talking about the Troy site since 1300 B.C. or
: so, not the Troy site in 11,600 B.C. Since you were
: arguing that rising sea levels have made Hissarlik
: much closer to the sea than it used to be.
No no…moving backwards in time, Sili, the water level goes down. Forwards in time, it goes up. The water was further away in the past.
: See above.
You didn’t answer my question.
: The mouth of a river opens onto the ocean. Rivers deposit
: silt along the coastline near their mouth. Gradually
: the coastline moves forward into the ocean. It's
: happening all over the world right now.
Wtf? Restate that please.
: And from pictures and people I know who went there and
: looked, there aren't mountains in the way. Do you have
: a link to the map?
An atlas of northwestern Turkey.
: What of that? Plato and other Greeks knew quite well
: where the structures *they* called the Pillars of
: Hercules were.
Stop going in circles; the Phoencians named them first. The Greeks took the Phoenecian name.
: And obviously Plato's Egyptians agreed
: with that location, since they go on to talk about how
: Atlantis ruled southwest Europe and northwest Africa,
: before getting stomped by the Athenians.
No, they don’t. The Egyptians say their Punt (Paridise) lies towards the east, across the ocean.
: Western Turkey != South China Sea. Outside the Strait of
: Gibraltar != South China Sea. Western Turkey != Strait
: of Gibraltar. Three for three.
Lol, wth? Quote the descriptians of the locations, please.
Homer doesn’t say Gibraltar; he says the Pillars of Hercules (there are actually many accounts of such in the world, including by the Hindus and Dravidas). Homer doesn’t say western Turkey either (duh, it didn’t exist yet). In fact, he says towards the east, I believe.
: I actually didn't know Homer gives a date such as that.
: Where is it?
I believe it’s mentioned in passing in the beginning, the same as all epics do (but this could merely be the addition or assumtion of the translator, so I don’t put much weight on it).
: See above for the likelihood that later copyists added an
: O to Plato's date.
Right, which was disproven in many ways. Please read everything of the site I ritually post before responding to any of this.
: Um...I think you need to do a bit of reading. The levels
: are counted from the bottom. VIIa is below Homer's
: levels. Before. Below.
Ah, I see. This is what we get for putting faith in the internet.
: I think you read the Timaeus upside down or something.
: Atlantis got the crap kicked out of it by the
: Athenians, then proceeded to sink beneath the waves in
: a single night with accompanying earthquakes.
As well as the logical conflagration.
: The
: various Troys burned down; fell down after
: earthquakes; or were levelled by invaders. Sinking
: beneath the ocean is conspicuously absent.
Of the Hissarlik site, yes, which discounts it; my point.
: On the other hand, it's entirely that the sinking bit was
: Plato's invention-
Where does this come from?
:-in which case, congratulations! You
: just proved that the Atlantis myth is also based on
: the Hissarlik site! :-P
Haha…so if it’s how you say (unsupportively), it works like this and only this. Gj. :-)
: Well, I've heard that pure iron has a greater tensile
: strength than bronze, even if it's more brittle. But I
: won't argue with the Brittanica. It would come to my
: house in the night.
I’m sure you’d be awake to meet your death (staying up so late to write this…:-)
: In any event, the mixture of iron and bronze in the Iliad
: remains an anachronism, as the Brittanica only
: emphasizes.
Elaborate.
: Nope, they didn't--but they did think of Troy as
: decidedly Eastern. That comes straight from the
: Aeneid.
K…are we disagreeing somewhere?
Sili, I am absolutely done discussing this with you until you read every thing, every word of every article, at www.atlan.org. Then we can discuss that stuff (and forget about Troy until it arises in that discussion). I think you'll enjoy it a lot, for it's quite interesting to read; and truly, keep as open a mind as you possibly can about it. Above all, have fun and enjoy the reading of it. Talk to you then :-).
Archer »–)›
