First off this argument is fast becoming one of those circular ones with adherents on both sides refusing to budge. Now I continue it… ;)
: very true, but Bahl'al has nothing to do with thrall as
: you believe, so, why would he be in half of the
: thrall's flavors? your theory is that he didn't
: discover the unlife dream which means he might have no
: connection at all to thrall. if you're right, then why
: have a completely unrelated failure in their text?
: they should have put a failure about some big thrall
: army that was Thwarted, and not Bahl'al's failure,
: which had nothing to do with them.
Not necesarilly. I personally think that Bahl'al is the father of the thrall. He made them and he uses them the most, ala Shiver and her wights. He tried to make an even more powerful form of undead by trying to search for the dream spoken only of in legends. He tries but fails, resulting in why we see only the weaker thrall in his armies. Since he's their creator, it's why it's in their text.
: this is a very good arguement. but I have to point this
: out: when bungie wrote Myth, they made a list of
: things not to include in the game, like cliches,
: "coming of age heroes", etc. Also in this
: list was obvious story arc references to anything in
: literature, because they wanted to be Original. and
: they were original, the only thing taken from
: literature are some names, not whole story arcs. which
: leads me to believe that thought your comparison does
: make much sense, it isn't likely to be true.
: I think, for myth, it's : "Super-powerful evil
: dude's greatest quest is to gain control of an
: underwater artifact conferring a new kind of life, and
: he succeeds completely, resulting in the creation of
: armies and the eventual fall of Mazzarin, the greatest
: Light hero of the past.
I have no idea where you got his list from. In all seriousness, did Bungie release this? It would help us a lot. however if it's just conjecture, allow me to point out that there are a ton of legends mirrored in Myth. If the comparison makes sense, it should probably be true, not the other way around.
: WOw! what you said above has lead to me a whole new line
: of thought (revelation i was talking about in title):
: a difference between UnDead and UnLife!
: I believe that the only way one can make anything with
: the above two is with the dream of unlife.
The list of this Dreams powers seems to be ever expanding. Sorta like the swiss-army knife of magic, eh? ;)
: First, Bahl'al finally discovers it. He quickly figures
: out how to use it to animate corpses into literal
: puppet armies. then Balor comes along and binds him,
: learns the dream, and shares it with some OR all of
: the other Fallen.
But! Thrall, soulless and wights were all around in the Wolf Age. I see no reason why the Dark Lords, without Balor's influence would give these secrets to eachother. They seem to hate eachother enough as it is, but if, as you imply, all of their magic derives from the same dream it means that had to.
: (In no particular order) Shiver discovers how to make
: UnLife with the dream of unlife, and not just Undead
: puppets. So she uses it to give a kind of life back to
: the Ghasts, which then become Wights, which explains
: perfectly why they feel pain. Then soulblighter takes
: Still Living dark human minions and removes their soul
: using the very same unlife dream, and experiments with
: souls removal until he gets it right.
But Wights were around during and before the Wolf Age, read above. Also, whether you like it or not, there were soulless in the Wolf Age. Since it is Myth in-game, it is canon. We'll see how they rationalize it, but it's still there.
: Balor takes the dream of unlife and uses it on the
: corpses of some still living warriors, the Myrmidons,
: who feel and think just like wights do, but More,
: because they didn't really die, just had the dream
: casted into them when they still were alive.
But wait! Myrmidons, or their counterparts existed before Balor. They were a similar form of Undead called the "Forsaken." You can see them in some screens at MWA dot com.
: i still think that quality=quantity when it comes to
: Dreams, wouldnt you want to blow up More people with a
: dispersal dream? or convert more guys? in this sense,
: they appear to me to be the same thing
Not really, you're onyl thinking in terms of really powerful dreams such as dispersal. If your Dream of Unlife existed there would be a very definate difference between creating a super form of undead and creating a huge amount of thrall. Quantity vs. quality.
: it can imply that, but perhaps it is implying that dreams
: can be altered. and who knows if the FX in the game
: don't have some value unknown to us, but evident in
: the Myth world?
But from what we see in game, it does not. It seems to me that, since that is the most changed dream we've seen and all that's happened is that its visuals changed, there's not much more you can do.
: hmm that's true, but for all we know the Baron knows some
: things we do not give him any credit for. he could be
: a mage but i agree he isn't an archmage.
I seriously doubt he's a mage, but even if he is it should take great power to weild any sort of dream. Look at the warlocks, they are pretty powerful, but can't handle a Dream and so rely on their own magics.
On that same note, the warlocks have "normal" magic. This obviously means that such things as combat and defense spells exist within the mudane, instead of dream, magics. So why not Necromancy, eh?
: they may have been unable at first, but soon learned
: anyway because Balor passed the secrets around like
: fruitcakes! why wouldnt he; the more Fallen who know
: all the secrets, the bigger the armies and more
: chances of Dark succeeding.
Balor actually did _not_ pass around secrets. I present two examples of this. First he didn't share the spell of dimensional travel (with which he brought in the fetch) with anyone, making them stuck when he died. Second he didn't pass on (although it did exist in a proto form) the myrmidon spell, evidenced by their absense from SB's army.
-Disc
