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Re: Identities of the Fallen

Posted By: Forrest (term6-21.vta.west.net)
Date: 5/29/1999 at 3:02 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Identities of the Fallen (Forrest)

Yeesh. I found more posts on the true identities of the Fallen. I thought there were more than I had already posted. Here's (hopefully) the rest of them.

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MESSAGE: (#267) Re: Thoughts: The Watcher / other Fallen

<http://myth.nontoxic.org/cgi/asylum/index.pl?review=267>

AUTHOR: Cormorant

DATE: 1/25/99 at 1:47 p.m.

Reply To: (#248) Re: Thoughts: The Watcher / other Fallen

Author: Forrest Cameran

Date: 1/22/99 at 10:31 a.m.

: That would seem to contradict Bungie's own pre-release
: info, in which "Ashfear" was the leader of
: the Fallen Lords, and the Fallen themselves were
: Bahl'al, Bonesplitter, Soulblighter, The Deceiver, The
: Faceless Man, and The Voiceless One. So Ashfear =
: Balor, and hence Ashfear's underling Bahl'al can't
: also = Balor.
[snip blah]

I'm sorry, but I've heard your theory so many times but you have no conclusive
evidence that Bahl'al and the Watcher are the same. For one thing, you based
it all on that tidbit about Avon's Grove, and since you've played Myth 2 by
now, you know that it was the shade Phelot who created the thrall there.
Anyway, you should also remember that Phelot is one of the Deceiver's shades.
I am sure of this because remember the jailbrake? And he wasn't just
"Deceived" by a spell because the Deceiver's spell won't work on the undead.
Besides, the deceiving spell is temporary. So the Deceiver's shades were doing
willed to doing the Watcher's bidding. Hmm, that can't be. Bahl'al may have
been one of the Fallen (or he may have been Balor himself. Bahler. Bahl'al.
Makes sense because the prerelease may have been YAMI).

Anyway, what about "Mad Goat of the Fens"? Isn't that a flatlands place in
England somewhere? I don't know anything about it, but maybe its some sort of
joke.

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MESSAGE: (#292) Re: Thoughts: The Watcher / other Fallen

<http://myth.nontoxic.org/cgi/asylum/index.pl?review=292>

AUTHOR: Ares

DATE: 1/27/99 at 9:38 p.m.

Reply To: (#267) Re: Thoughts: The Watcher / other Fallen

Author: Cormorant

Date: 1/25/99 at 1:47 p.m.

: I'm sorry, but I've heard your theory so many times but
: you have no conclusive evidence that Bahl'al and the
: Watcher are the same. For one thing, you based it all
: on that tidbit about Avon's Grove, and since you've
: played Myth 2 by now, you know that it was the shade
: Phelot who created the thrall there. Anyway, you
: should also remember that Phelot is one of the
: Deceiver's shades. I am sure of this because remember
: the jailbrake? And he wasn't just "Deceived"
: by a spell because the Deceiver's spell won't work on
: the undead. Besides, the deceiving spell is temporary.
: So the Deceiver's shades were doing willed to doing
: the Watcher's bidding. Hmm, that can't be. Bahl'al may
: have been one of the Fallen (or he may have been Balor
: himself. Bahler. Bahl'al. Makes sense because the
: prerelease may have been YAMI).

: Anyway, what about "Mad Goat of the Fens"?
: Isn't that a flatlands place in England somewhere? I
: don't know anything about it, but maybe its some sort
: of joke.

Don't you get it? The Deciever's spell doesn't work on the undead because the
Undead do not have a will of their own. They can't be tricked into fighting
for the opposite side because they dont got the smarts to know who they're
fighting anyway! They're pawns used by the Fallen, who mindlesslessly hack
away at the living. You cant trick something that doesn't think. Shades are
sentient.

Phelot was broken to the Deciever's will. Don't you remember your journal
entry? "I am surprised Phelot has not sought vengence on us, as he WAS SORELY
WOUNDED BY THE DECIEVER UPON OUR ARRIVAL." The Deciever broke Phelot and bent
him to his will, sort of like Balor broke Myrdred to his will. Phelot is a
beaten cur, controlled by the Deciever.

As for what you say about Phelot razing Avons Grove, you should know that the
Deciever was nowhere near Avons Grove when Phelot was there. He was in
Silvermines. the Watcher was at Avon's Grove.

Many things support the Watcher being Bahl'al. Forrest's theory does, believe
it or not, hold water.

-Ares

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MESSAGE: (#295) Re: Thoughts: The Watcher / other Fallen

<http://myth.nontoxic.org/cgi/asylum/index.pl?review=295>

AUTHOR: Cormorant

DATE: 1/28/99 at 1:22 p.m.

Reply To: (#292) Re: Thoughts: The Watcher / other Fallen

Author: Ares

Date: 1/27/99 at 9:38 p.m.

: Many things support the Watcher being Bahl'al. Forrest's
: theory does, believe it or not, hold water.

: -Ares

But then again...no it doesn't. Forrest's theory is based on the assumption
that only Bahl'al can create thrall. Therefore, Bahl'al had to be in Avon's
Grove to make the thrall we see at the beginning of Myth TFL.

Well, I'll tell you that the attack on Avon's Grove was considered a very
small scale attack by even the Light. We find out in Myth 2 that it was
perpetrated by a minor soceror named Phelot. Okay, small plot hole closed.

Shades normally have a master, usually one of the Fallen. If you think about
it, the Fallen are sort of like Generals, and shades are lower-ranking
officers who conduct their own missions as part of their masters' campaigns.
Well, you're forgetting that Shiver was orchestrating an attack on Madrigal at
the same time Avon's Grove and presumably many other tiny nearby villages were
being raized. Maybe I was wrong about the Deceiver being Phelot's master. But
now I am pretty certain that it was Shiver all along. How come everyone's
overlooked the events in "Shiver", where the Deceiver orders Phelot to kill
the Myrkridia, much to her surprise?

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MESSAGE: (#247) Re: Thoughts: The Watcher / other Fallen

<http://myth.nontoxic.org/cgi/asylum/index.pl?review=247>

AUTHOR: Tiger -DC-

DATE: 1/22/99 at 9:54 a.m.

Reply To: (#244) Thoughts: The Watcher / other Fallen

Author: Forrest Cameran

Date: 1/21/99 at 9:39 p.m.

: Just a note, most evidence points to The Watcher being
: Bahl'al. While I'm on this topic, I'll re-post my list
: of the Fallen Lords' surnames, true names, and titles.

Sorry, but though some evidence points to this, I have a little superior
knowledge. I talked to Doug Zartman at Macworld NY, and he told me directly
that Bahl'al was another name for Balor. The Watcher, I believe, was one of
Moagim's Fallen Lords.

: Soulblighter (Damas), Twice Born
: The Watcher (Bahl'al), Mad Goat of the Fens
: Shiver (Ravanna), The Voiceless One
: The Deceiver (Myrdred), Souce of the Five Hundred Poisons
: Bonesplitter (Unknown), Unknown
: The Faceless Man (Unknown), Unknown

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