: Well, I'm glad that you're narrowing things down, even if
: switching theories is kind of an incovenience, but OK.
: Now, you say in this thread that you're dropping the
: "deal" theory, and you said in the above
: thread that you're dropping the "slipped
: info" theory, so I'm not going to argue anything
: pertaining to those two (I just really hope you're not
: planning on "resurrecting" them, as it would
: mean I'd have to come way back to these posts).
I can resurrect anything I want. Why do you feel you need to reply to everything? No one is making you.
: My idea (debated in a different thread) was that sixty
: years in a coma gave the Deceiver time to
: recuperate--even comatose patients heal wounds. So, by
: the time the scepter (yes, it's spelled
: "scepter") is returned to him, he's ready
: for battle.
Hmm... there is no evidence of this. Since you seem to be thinking right out of the book, this belief can't hold water. It's basically spelled out that the Deceiver, once his scepter left his hand and plunged to the bottom of Dramus, be became powerless and was swept downstream. Until the scepter is brought to him, he could not escape from the ice, the only power he had left was the ability to keep himself alive. Once the D's staff is returned, the D springs back to life. That's how it happened at face-value, as you say.
: OK, but remember the point I bring up--Alric says he
: learned the info "by chance," so whoever he
: was talking to (you say D, I say Balor) didn't come
: out and tell him directly--he must have had to, dare I
: say it, "slip the info" to him in a manner
: that seemed accidental to Alric (I know you claim that
: you drop this idea in the above thread, but this is
: the only way you can keep your general theory alive).
: That is, if you contend that the D really did mean to
: communicate this info to Alric, which you seem to have
: been postulating all this time.
Of course the Deceiver meant to tell Alric. Alric was his last hope. Certainly the Deceiver could not kill Balor himself. He would bring the other Lords down upon him and have to go in hiding until somebody defeated all the Lords.
He's smart, not stupid. He obviously is not too pleased with his position in Balor's ranks. As mentioned dozens of times, Myth is roughly based on "The Black Company", and many of the Taken (similar to the Fallen Lords) plot to kill The Lady (similar to the Leveller) in hopes for various events to occur (their freedom from her sorcery among them.) The stories nearly mirror each other (and I'm only on "Shadows Linger" so I don't know how the story ultimately turns out) but the general theme is identical.
The D is bent to Balor's will (meaning, he doesn't get his power from Balor, but he does things that mirror Balor's motives) and doesn't have the best track record of all the Fallen Lords. Apparently, the majority of the Lords don't like him, so he's not making any friends. All he wants is to get out and see the rebirth of the Empire. As mentioned before, he can't just walk up to Balor and slay him. It's much too difficult. So, he captures Alric (why Alric was sent out towards the D's camp is another mystery) and has him in his possession. He takes on the image of Balor and interrogates Alric, knowing he's not going to get anything out of him. But, he uses the avatara to start (or continue) his plan.
The D either tells Alric of the bounding straight forward (Alric could have engaged "Balor" in conversation, not small talk, but he could have questioned him back, and the D could have revealed the false information through this conversation) or by letting Alric overhear him talking to someone else or through whatever sorcery he could use.
: So, the theory you seem to be defending is that the D
: captured Alric. Balor wasn't present. During
: interrogations, the D disguised himself as Balor.
: Alric honestly thought he was being interrogated by
: Balor. In the course of these interrogations, the D
: pretends to accidentally let Alric know that, by
: killing Balor, the Fallen Lords will become powerless,
: but the D knows this info is false--he just wants
: Alric to destroy the master he hates. Alric takes the
: bait. Then, to ensure that the Light learns of the
: misinformation that the D has spread, when the rescue
: comes, the D allows Alric to escape.
: Two questions: 1. Is it really necessary to your theory
: that the D actually gave misinformation? Couldn't the
: info have been true? Or is this just something
: separate that you're arguing?
The info is false. Once Balor falls, the other Lords do not fall. (See : Myth 2) And the idea that you bring up, that the Lords were temporarily powerless, is not the impression that Alric gets. He believes that once Balor is defeated, the other Lords will fall and never come to power again.
I've said it many times. The info has to be false. Why would Balor tell Alric, or let Alric some how across this info while he is in the area, that if Balor were to die, the Dark's campaign would be over. He would want Alric to hunt down all the Lords first, then come after Balor. The war may have last 1000 years if Alric learned that instead. If Alric thought that each Lord had to fall first, before Balor could perish, then Balor would have plenty of time to wreak havoc on the Myth world while the Legion focused on each Lord.
It makes no sense that Balor would allow Alric to walk away with the impression that Balor *had* to fall and his destruction was more important than any other Lord. A general or king, or some sort of leader would never invite the enemy to focus on him. Main strategy is to spread the focus so concentration on one enemy cannot happen.
2. Do you think that the
: D also took this opportunity to
: "accidentally" tell Alric where to find the
: Eblis Stone? (Of course, that's debated in the above
: string).
I don't know how he may have told Alric, but I simply asked you how the stone was found or learned about. There is no explanation given so I was suggesting one. After the Watcher defeated the Deceiver, the D could have fled and told Alric the location of the stone. Who knows.
: OK, what does this mean? This seems to be arguing for
: me...like I've said, every level is beatable for
: gameplay reasons. You accept that, yet you say
: "Five Champs" and "Out of the
: Barrier" are "special" and in this
: case, unlike every single other level, the dark is
: actually letting you win.
No, you say every level is beatable and that affects the story. You say "Are we to assume a player of Myth is smarter than Balor if he can defeat Alric?". No. Don't you see what goes on during The Last Battle? The standard is brought out, which evokes no emotion in them player, but for the ex-hero of the Wolf Age who vanquished the terror of Myrkridia, seeing the standard of one of his most hated foes will enrage him to the point where he doesn't think properly. NOTHING like this was recorded happening during the rescue of Alric. There was nothing to cloud Balor's judgement, so you can't say "Balor screwed up in the Last Battle, who says he can't screw up in 'The Five Champions'?" There was no source for his screw up. There was an obvious object that through Balor's judgement off at his fortress, nothing of the sort happened out in the desert.
One would have to assume the heroes rescued Alric under different circumstances.
: Anyway my point is, given the resources that Balor has in
: "The Last Battle" (lots and lots of Myrm's,
: fetch, thrall, and his own lightning power), even an
: idiot, in a light vs. dark game, if he gets control of
: the dark, can defeat the best Myth player controlling
: the Light. Why is an idiot better than Balor? The
: answer is...Balor just ain't perfect. He makes
: mistakes. Your "proof" that Balor is perfect
: is that, in the one year of documentation by the
: narrator, there is no mention of a mistake. That still
: leaves another fourteen years; and the Last Battle,
: just from a MILITARY perspective, is a pretty mistake.
: Yeah, Balor could have been mad as hell at the time,
: but he also could have sent all his fetch and
: myrmidons at you at the same time, destroying you
: utterly. Or he could have zapped you to death. This is
: what I mean when I say any idiot controlling the dark
: can bust up the light.
I talked about this above. But, no, it wasn't just a year of tactical perfection, it was the whole 17 1/2 years of the war. If he made an error, it would have been recorded somewhere. No where is there a mention, in GURPS, manuals or journals that Balor made an error before the Last Battle.
As for the idiot beating the Light, away from what I said above, the Dark has more units. We are to believe that Alric pulled a fast one on Balor by distorting his perception and emotions. Plus, Alric and his men would have died if the Eblis stone was not used. Without that, Balor would have cut down Alric and the zerks like grass.
: So, what does it mean? It means that, just because the
: Dark acts stupid and you win because of it, doesn't
: mean it's LETTING you win. Balor could, potetntially,
: crush in "The Last Battle," but fails to.
: He's not LETTING you win. It's just Bungie intervening
: and making it possible to win. Same deal in "Five
: Champions" and "Out of the Barrier."
: They came up with the idea of Alric getting captured,
: then had to make up some way by which you could
: win--so they come up with the paratrooper surprise.
: Yeah, it makes the Deceiver and/or Balor look stupid,
: but so what?
No, it doesn't make anyone look stupid. It actually makes the Deceiver look cunning, but I guess its just your perception of the events that unfolded.
Again, Balor was not his regular self. He was thrown a curveball with the standard, and perhaps didn't recover from this, or did, but it was too late. Alric whipped out the Eblis stone and the rest is history.
: As Forrest explained a while back, Myth is an example of
: "multi-linear storytelling." Everything in
: Gurps and Myth II operates under the assumption that
: the Light won in Myth I, i.e., everything in Myth I
: and Gurps is true IF the Light won. The post-game art
: of Five Champions and Out of the Barrier, however, is
: true IF the five champions are killed. Bungie is
: trying to point out that, had the five champions died,
: the Dark would have killed Alric. Why? Because they
: had the intention to kill him the moment he escaped
: from his bonds.
The game is linear. The current year of Myth is one year after the fall of Soulblighter. We are viewing the events of the game from this point in time. The game just allows you to play through. If the game was multlinear, then there would be more to the losses. There is not. There is one goal and only one road to it. Veterans, just an added feature. That is not evidence of a non-linear story.
There are not multiple endings to the game or to each level. Once you fail, you can't progress, you are *forced* to start over and try the level again because that is the one, the only, the correct path to take.
: As further proof of multilinearity: veterans are not
: linear. It changes each time you play. Also,
: "Limbs Heads and Smoking Craters." Unlike
: "A Long Awaited Party," it is not clear that
: the events of "Limbs" take place even if you
: don't actually visit the level. If you fail to find
: it, one of your units insists "there must be
: another way," implying that he, like the rest of
: the units, never find the secret stockpile, and never
: blow it up. Sure, it may get blown up later, but right
: there is a story difference. You say that this is
: disproven because the ultimate story doesn't change,
: but rembember what I've been saying: the events of
: "Limbs" aren't enough to change the ultimate
: outcome of the war. They are very minor events. But
: they do, nevertheless, reflect different, possible,
: minor outcomes within the larger story of Myth. So,
: just because the changes (i.e., does the stock pile
: get blown up shortly after the D's escape or shortly
: after SB's death) are small doesn't mean they don't
: happen, and they still reflect multilinearity.
So, are you telling me there are poacher's rifles and exploding deer in the Myth world? I doubt it because one side would have used either to their advantage. If you are telling me the game is mulitlinear, you can't explain away the poacher level by saying "That's just a joke" because it's one possibility for the gamer to go through.
But, it's never recorded anywhere that the citizens of the Myth world had access to any sort of gun.
: You also say that there are no cutscenes showing Alric's
: death or subsequent levels. I say, so what? That means
: Bungie didn't want to bother explicitly explaining
: what happens after the five champions die...they are
: assuming that you get the message that Alric is
: killed, dooming the war effort. No additional
: explanation needed--who wants a long history of how
: the Light lost?
I do. If the game has different paths and endings, I want to play through them or at least see what happens. This game is not a RPG, its a RTS with ONE ending. If you want to see it, you have to play through the game by winning each level. We must view this story from the present not from each level because that is the way it is pushed upon us.
: Finally, why in God's name would Bungie draw a picture of
: a dead Alric? Because they're "guessing"
: that's what would happen next? No! It's because that's
: what does happen next! Bungie wouldn't draw this up to
: confuse the player...they are trying to tell you
: something!
Heh, Bungie made the story up but that doesn't mean they know what happens when the Legion fails. The story is supposed to have happened as we read it in GURPS. There is no other path, just end-level screens that show us what *could* happen if we don't click "Restart" and beat the level. We are to view the story from the year GURPS explains is current.
: I don't know what this means, but unless it was the
: truth, Bungie wouldn't draw it up. Also, what kind of
: motivation would it be if it wasn't true? Hell, why do
: you HAVE to keep at least one of the Five Champions
: alive to win "Out of the Barrier" if Alric
: wouldn't get killed anyway, no matter what? He knows
: how to escape and, according to you, the D's forces
: aren't targeting him.
No, you have to keep ALL of the five champions alive, not just one. This is for the challenge of the game. Plus, Alric can't escape until the force field is destroyed. It was extremely easy to destroy, but Alric couldn't do that from inside of it.
: No that's not clear--nor is it clear that they WERE
: dependent on him.
Obviously not, look at Soulblighter. Or the Deceiver. If he had his scepter, who knows what he may have done.
: Right, little evidence of anything. Only ev we have AT
: ALL is what Alric said. We have no further reason to
: believe he's right, but no reason at all to believe
: he's wrong. Why doubt it?
Because things don't make sense and that's the nature of this forum.
: OK, now back to the Deceiver. Other evidence you've
: brought up: You asked why, if Balor is the captor, he
: didn't kill Alric. I say, he's busy interrogating
: Alric, who probly hasn't told Balor anything. Balor is
: content to wait, sit, and torture Alric till he
: 'fesses up.
And what information would Balor want or hope to get from Alric? If the volcano hadn't erupted, with the Watcher's constant attacks on the Legions rear during the winter and the Deceiver's soulless and ghols raiding small bands of Legionnaires, the war probably would have ended favoring the Dark by the end of the 18th year.
: You asked why Balor hasn't dragged Alric back to the
: safety of Rhi'Anon. I say 1. Might be risky--the
: process might weaken the stasis field generators
: somehow. 2. Why bother? Means Balor will have to leave
: the action (and take the time of coming back) to do
: something he could do just as well in the Barrier
: anyway, i.e., sit around, wait, get the info he wants,
: then kill Alric. 3. He might BE in the process of
: moving Alric right when Alric's rescued. Remember,
: they're pretty far into the Barrier.
There was nothing to learn from Alric and Balor would have known that Alric wouldn't fess up. After all, with the Watcher attacking the Legion's rear all winter, and the Deceiver's soulless and ghols raiding small bands of Legionnaires, when the war resumed in the Spring, the Light would be pincered and their defeat probably would have occurred by the end of the 18th year. It all was going the Dark's way, until Tharsis erupted.
The Leveller seeks to destroy. Alric is one of the, if not the most important and power mage of the Light. Balor should have killed him the minute he reached the Deceiver's camp.
: You also bring up the Watcher's arm and Eblis Stones, but
: I address those in the above string.
: So, now onto my evidence against your theory.
: 1. This answer I have brough up MANY times (I went all
: the way back through our posts...I've brought it up at
: least five different times, it was never answered).
: I'll basically just reprint what I wrote in my last
: post in this string: Why would the D bother to cloak
: himself and then "slip info" to Alric? For
: one thing, if he really has loyalty to the Cath Bruig,
: why all the needless deception? (I know, I know, his
: name is "The Deceiver," but Balor came up
: with the name and, besides, the name explains nothing
: in and of itself. Not EVERYTHING the D says is a
: lie--why should he trick Alric like this?) It's very
: risky.
: Alric might not pick up on the D's hint, whatever it
: is--to make it really explicit would make Alric
: suspect something.
You are speculating, like you say I do. I answered your point before, as did Dan, but perhaps you missed it. I never answered it again because I figured once was enough.
The Deceiver took the image of Balor and gave Alric the info through some means. The Deceiver does deceive, Balor gave him the name because it is something he does. Again, The Lady from The Black Company gives the Taken names very similar to the Fallen Lords. The Limper (because he has a bad foot and limps), the Howler (because he howls when he uses his powers), Soulcatcher (takes souls), Shapeshifter (alters his shape), Stormbringer (uses the power of weather)...and so on. Bungie got many of its ideas from The Black Company, and to name the Fallen Lords, who have obvious names, after something they do is taken from the series of books.
The Deceiver won't come outright and tell Alric of hid plan, perhaps not yet. He probably doesn't trust everyone, like most people don't trust him. He can't reveal himself and his plans to the leader of the Light and then have it backfire on him. After all, Alric or someone could let out the secret that the D is working for the Light to cause strife amongst the Lords and then the D would surely fall. The D wants to live and see the Dark fall, and by giving Alric info and keeping himself out of it directly, he ensures this.
: Also, the D knew there was a
: possibility that Alric might die in escaping,
: exemplified by the many ways there are to lose in
: "The Five Champions" and "Out of the
: Barrier." That would make the whole deception
: useless and needlessly dangerous (there's always the
: odd chance Balor might find out). And even if the
: storyline is linear and Alric is guaranteed to
: survive, the D doesn't know that!
The D does, and he ensures it. All we know is that Alric escaped and not ONE hero died. That's how the story goes. That's how the Deceiver wanted it.
: So, my point is, rather than create
: this entire facade, why not just make a deal with
: Alric, or give him the info straight up? (And, no, I'm
: not arguing that's what happened, I still think it's
: always been Balor). He could tell Alric "I am an
: Avatara who has been bound against my will. Kill Balor
: and I will help you." Alric would believe this
: because Myrdred was an Avatara, and
: it's practically the truth.
You can't, like I said above, do this. He calculated hid plans out well and he doesn't seem the guy to come out and just admit his plans to others. Can you imagine the Deceiver say what you wrote above? No. He has his motives and methods. And, they worked.
: As a further gesture to prove his sincerity, the D could
: then, literally, let Alric go. He could then tell any
: story he wanted to to Balor--something along the lines
: of "these five guys came and paratrooped in and
: rescued him, I just
: wasn't expecting it!" He could even create a whole
: mess of dead undead to complete the illusion, but
: there's no reason that Balor would come inspect the
: site anyway. If you think that the shades might have
: reported to Balor, no, because if the Deceiver
: controlled the army that captured Alric, then the
: shades would be controlled by the Deceiver.
You have to create a realistic situation. You have to also make Alric and the 5 heroes believe that they are defending Alric. Remember, the D didn't just have to fool Balor,. he had to also fool Alric and the rescuers.
: Or, instead of letting him go, he could tell Alric
: "when your rescue party comes I will allow them
: to rescue you." (Yes, the D might say something
: like this according to you--your theory only works if
: the D assumed a rescue party was coming, or else the D
: would have believed Alric was doomed to die and that
: slipping this info wouldn't be worth a dime).
The Deceiver may have been counting on a rescue team to come through the area.
: It's much more likely that the D would try to set up one
: of these two theoretical pacts. I've already brought
: up a couple reasons up above. Another reason is that
: the D knew that, to end up allied with the Light
: (being loyal to them, he surely wanted to end up on
: their side at the war's end), he would have to inform
: them of their predicament and tell them his sympathies
: lay with them. What better opportunity when he has the
: head of the Light as his captive audience! He could at
: last inform Alric of his terrible predicament, and
: maybe he wouldn't end up the way he did--stuffed in a
: river by the warriors of the Cath Bruig, the very
: Empire he wants to serve.
Again, he's not into giving in to anyone. He's not going admit his problems to Alric and ask for help. He stay with the Dark, keeps Balor and the other Lords thinking he is still on their side, and let's Alric do the dirty work. Sounds like a good idea to me. And, while Alric is going after Balor, the D could kill of the Watcher. But... his plans fall apart when the Legion seizes the arm and to prevent the Watcher from getting the arm from the Legion, he gets on their ass and forces them to flee, then when the Watcher is ready to pounce, the Deceiver turns around and sacrifices his forces to stop the Watcher in his tracks and to allow for the easy escape of the Legion with the arm. After all, if the D could not have the arm, he wanted anyone else that wished the Lord dead to have it in their possession.
: If what I've said above is true, the "cloaking"
: theory can't be true. That would leave either 1. The
: "deal" theory or 2. Balor IS the captor.
: You've dropped the "deal" theory, so it
: would mean Balor is the captor, as I've been arguing.
No, the Deceiver took on the image of Balor. Balor was not present when Alric was captive. He may have arrived just afterwards, but he was not their before or during the rescue.
: 2. If he's loyal to the Cath Bruig, why (as you're
: contending he did) would the Deceiver actively lie to
: Alric about the power relationship between Balor and
: the Fallen Lords? This one you probably have answered,
: but I'd like to hear it again to clear things up. In
: any case, isn't there some way to get Alric to help
: him without lying to him?
No, he has to give him the false info. This would ensure the fall of Balor and no longer would the Deceiver be "bent to his will". He could do whatever he pleases, which probably has something do with the Cath Bruig.
Again, he lied to Alric to get Balor dead. That's why. the Deceiver wanted Balor dead so the Dark would lose shape and structure.
: 3. If you buy that the D faked his death at the end of
: Myth II, why would he do this? The only people around
: to see were warriors of the Cath Bruig...why would he
: trick the people with whom his loyalties lay?
This has nothing to do with the argument and frankly I have never given this idea much thought. Who knows what his motives were but all we know is that GURPS is written as if the Deceiver is alive and well, and is in service of the Empire.
: So, among all of these, especially pay attention to #1,
: which has never been answered.
If it truly hasn't, I hope I asnwered it well-enough now. You know, these posts are getting longer and longer, and much more time-consuming to write :)
Chris
