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Re: I am minority. (pt 2)
By:Avateur
Date: 8/12/13 9:35 pm
In Response To: Re: I am minority. (pt 2) (Revenant1988)

: Well, most of that strife here did come from only a few specific people. I
: can understand 343 wanting to make 'their' universe. You don't want to be
: in your predecessors shadow any longer than is necessary. If Bungie wanted
: to change their story a bit as sort of a 'last hurrah' so what?

And while a lot of it could be considered and was considered toxic, there were some pretty awesome conversations regarding writing, storytelling, etc. H4 didn't even get that luxury. Anyone has something bad to say about it, even politely and constructively, and either no one replies or they throw the "that's your opinion" which is dead obvious (or dead wrong since you can factually back up something that's poorly written) and stifles discussion.

: It's not that its more or less valid, its that in terms of HBOs many many
: changes, the only folks who can really say what its been like since the
: beginning have to have BEEN here since the beginning. Yeah HBO is quiet
: now, but I've seen multiple times from Claude that its normal, and people
: freaking out about it is normal. It ramps up, it slows down. It gets
: heated, it gets cold. There are many environmental factors to consider for
: this specific eco system, and I agree for the most part with Cody's
: opinion in this tread.

That the Flood should be in H5? j/k :P

: Personally, I'll never be able to play Halo 4 (or any game going forward) the
: way that I did Combat Evolved and Halo 2. I'll never be 14 with infinite
: free time again.

And this is where I feel the conversation gets odd in terms of nostalgia. I love H1 and H2 to death, but H2 was incredibly broken. The maps on the other hand were absolutely glorious.

By contrast, I really like Reach. Reach drives people crazy and a lot of people can't stand it and don't even want to play it anymore, a ton of my friends and fellow-HBOers included. I feel like the maps in Reach are terrible, and while I enjoy playing the campaign, I feel the story is not well written at all, (and I'm not referring to canon in the slightest).

: And I won't miss them if they stay there.

Dunno about you, but I have fun pounding on dudebros in Halo. :P

: As an individual, that's why I can't quantify and compare Halo 4
: success/failure with any other Halo title. I can only say that they are
: different and there are things I like/dislike about each title.

I feel like I can quantify it because I've been playing Halo since 2001, I'm not sick of Halo (and have really enjoyed myself playing H4, Reach, and H3 in the community nights), yet I absolutely want nothing to do with H4 unless I know the community is together and in a big group and it's a good time. The game has way too many problems. Bruce pointed out so eloquently that those problems are problems to me. The obvious retort from myself being, "No way! Who knew things that I said were my own opinion." There are basic things that every single other Halo game got right that apparently are too difficult for H4 to get right. Maybe they'll succeed with H5. Dunno. It's just too easy to compare the failures and shortcomings of H4 to the previous titles, including the titles I didn't enjoy as much when compared to others.

: If you see what waypoint is now, know that it was like that in the Halo 2/3
: days on B.net.

I've been around. I'm completely aware of what B.net was like during those times. I, for the most part, avoided B.net like the plague. That's Waypoint now. I still read B.net today and did back then, and I even read Waypoint because I like seeing what's going on over there, but I feel like I can't read those forums for a prolongued period (unlike B.net, which I've basically read for years without ever posting).

: B.net got so bad that it drove me to posting here after lurking long enough.

You chose wisely!

: B.net will likely have to deal with those problems again when Destiny comes
: out.

No joke.

: Let's not drift into this territory. I will only say that while you may not
: be happy with the content of the tweaks they introduce, the FREQUENCY
: should not be overly criticized. There are plenty of games out there that
: could desperately use a TU or patch that don't get them. 343 is, for all
: arguments, involved with their online community in this regard. I remember
: it taking what felt like eons for Bungie to patch things like exploits and
: cheaters in Halo 3. Remember dat Mauler?

I think I came off the wrong way. I'm not criticizing the frequency of fixes, I'm using them to point out how freaking busted this game was. I have absolutely no problem saying that the fixes they have introduced have absolutely improved H4 and even got it to a point where I was really enjoying playing on a regular basis. And then they weapon tuned and screwed more things up, illogically. Yes, to all out there who doubt what I'm doing right now, those words are my own opinion (gasp).

And H3? You are so unbelievably correct. I quit Halo 3. It took H4 to break my personal record of quitting a game that I should be loving within a few months of launch. It wasn't just the Mauler bullshit, but the Melee bullshit as well. I jumped ship to CoD4 and other games for months until Bungie got their shit together.

343 appears to have most of their stuff in line, but they're continuing with the splitting of the community (in-game) with playlists that have different playstyles, sort of like they did with the alleged "TU" with Reach, and the weapon tuning. Got no time for trash like that. I learned my lesson in H3 about forcing myself to play a busted game. As I've said a few times around here, I feel like H4 was doing way too many of the bad things that H3 did.

: I don't think that I was trying to elevate myself or anything, but I do
: strive to read other peoples posts from their perspectives. I find myself
: playing Devil's advocate in a many areas that I interact with people (not
: just HBO).

Multiplayer aside, if the campaign's story and level design wasn't so atrocious, I'd probably be a lot nicer to the game. I was really excited for H4's campaign (and I saw the multiplayer trainwreck coming from about 20 miles out), and the campaign ended up just being awful. Again, bordering on the H3 levels of bad in terms of certain level design choices and linearity (H4 is in its own level of story-bad-ery, up there with Reach).

: Its just hard to sit back and watch someone spew the same thing over and over
: from one perspective. It's OK to dislike something, adamantly even. But
: for me, I have to understand both sides (or more) to an issue.

Isn't that what you and others do about how good the game is and how much you like it and how because you and millions of other people enjoy it, clearly it can't be as bad as others say? Btw, I'm playing devil's advocate right now. Don't take those questions seriously. Just saying, that seems to be the reaction whenever anyone bags on H4, and it's been the reaction from day one before the negativity had a chance to get repetitive in regards to the released product.

: See, and I don't know why people say things like that. What is so hilarious
: about it? I perceive it as quality over quantity.

I find it hilarious because I perceive it as a lack of quality leading to a lack of quantity. Of course, correlation may not be causation, but it sure does look that way (in my opinion).

: I know what you're gonna say- Logically, we should WANT as large a population
: possible playing a game. That benefits me, the player in giving me a
: larger pool of people to play with etc and it benefits the developer and
: all those other powers that be with more money.

Ideally we should. A population that actually enjoys the game, tells their friends, their friends come, enjoy. Said population wants to get more skill and get better at the game. Or become a master Forger. Or make awesome gametypes. Create awesome videos and montages. Things that are all still happening, but you don't really see as much of it.

Like you said, plenty of competition and whatnot around as far as games go these days, but certain games and franchises never seem to drop population no matter how many sequels or competing titles come out.

: But you see, I could give a crap about the actual population size as long as
: I can still find qualtiy matches .

Like I said to Bruce up above in this thread, H4 takes a decade just to match me up. I shouldn't be able to go into H3 or Reach and find games faster than in H4 in playlists with thousands of players.

: I'll use Halo Wars as my example, as its still the only thing I really play
: in my (admittedly limited) gaming time.

: Halo Wars population (according to what I see, in game) hovers on average at
: about 5,000 players, world wide. It's been like this for at least a year.
: That is pretty pathetic in terms of volume. Or is it?

: I guess that depends on your perspective.

: For me, the quality of games I get now are actually BETTER than they were 3
: years ago! I started to wonder why, and I think it has to do with the type
: of players that I encounter. They fall into 3 main groups: Player A :
: Someone who picked up Halo Wars at a bargain bin and is testing it out

: Player B : Someone who is chasing the General rank Achievement

: Player C : Someone who plays for enjoyment and strategy. They can't rank any
: higher, yet they still play.

: I run into lots of players in the 'C' group and because of it the games I
: typically play are much more enjoyable than they were when the population
: was way bigger years ago. Everything number wise would tell you that Halo
: Wars is dying and that hardly anyone plays it yet I have no problems
: getting matches and while I do run into my fair share of quitters (usually
: due to getting paired with a low rank partner) the majority of matches are
: great. Even when I lose.

I agree with your assessment here fully. I was actually schooled a bit ago here with a very very awesome slideshow presentation on B.net detailing the ranking system and things they learned from it from H2/H3. The higher skilled players, which I thought were actually sticking around, weren't. It's interesting. A lot of factors. Halo Wars definitely attracted and still attracts a more hardcore of player. H4 appears to have lost the hardcore competitive players, and it also appears to be struggling to maintain a more general population. There are so many factors as to why, but gameplay is a huge part of it. The endless patches, the ridiculous weapon tuning, and all of these other things that 343 has been doing are all attempts to get people to stay or come back. May be too late. I guess we'll see how The Pit and random armors work for the population.

Again, all my opinion based on actually playing these games, watching player trends, playing and never finding anywhere near as stiff competition as I've found on every other Xbox Live Halo game, etc.

: To circle back: What I'm saying is maybe Halo 4's population is kinda like
: that. I can only speculate as I have not played it in some time, but I
: have a hard time thinking there are people playing it who don't enjoy it.
: Sure, the number may not be as large as it once was (Halo is pretty old at
: this point in terms of gaming, and has plenty of competition) but that
: doesn't mean its a totally **bad thing.

: That's what I thought when I first read Schooly's post, is that population is
: not some be all end all identifier to how well a game is doing. It ebbs
: and flows. If we based a games merit solely on its MP population that
: would be sad. Sure CoD #whatevertheiruptonow may have a big ass number of
: people playing it but they are all people I don't want to play with.
: It's a game that I could argue is TOO easily accessible. Too average. Too
: run of the mill. It's popular because its bland. I want Halo to continue
: to be unique. If that means it sells less and the population is 20,000
: players and not 20,000,000 I'll still be able to sleep at night.

Also agreed. But it does provide a good indication of who's playing it and enjoying it. I thought for sure that I'd be silenced and population numbers would bump up during the summer. Nope. H4 isn't catching people. The sales might be there, but how quickly do they discard it? Say what you will about CoD, but people have fun playing it and can definitely get good at it compared to others who play. I'm not much of a fan of anything beyond MW2, and MW2 is a mess as it is.

: 343's Halo needs to be different and risky or it will fade into the
: mediocrity that is far to common in mass marketed games these days.

Different for different's sake is a problem. Change for change's sake is chaotic, you know? It needs to be progressive. I don't feel like they did anything progressive in H4. I feel like it was them doing what they could to put their own stamp on it and show what they can do to be different from Bungie and do their own thing.

Scary question. Why not let Halo fade into mediocrity? What if letting it fade into a legend of olde cements its legacy rather than busting it up and leaving it mangled? Not saying that's what 343 is doing, but if Halo died and stopped with H4, it definitely would not have gone out on a high note. Same goes for if it stopped at Reach.

: (**Yeah, maybe bad for Microsoft's wallet, but to be fair they already made
: their money when the game was purchased. And I also realize that if they
: ticked off enough people that might keep people from buying Halo 5. But to
: be honest, I think people 'not buying Halo 5' will have more to do with
: the XBONE and how that thing goes than 343.... ya know, if it happens.)

That's my biggest aspect. Even if 343 performed a miracle and made me want to buy the next Halo, there's no way I'm buying an Xbox One.


Messages In This Thread

Halo 4, fans, and 343Schooly D8/9/13 2:27 am
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Pkmnrulz2408/9/13 5:01 am
           Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343bluerunner8/9/13 8:00 am
                 Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Pkmnrulz2408/9/13 10:19 am
                       Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Captain Spark8/9/13 10:42 am
     $10 to the charity of your choicekidtsunami8/9/13 5:31 am
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343ZaneZavin8/9/13 8:22 am
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Kal8/9/13 9:36 am
           Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Pkmnrulz2408/9/13 10:31 am
                 Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Kal8/9/13 10:57 am
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Ragashingo8/9/13 9:55 am
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343The Lionheart8/9/13 9:57 am
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343DEEP NNN8/9/13 10:22 am
     It's no secret...padraig088/9/13 10:50 am
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343TDSpiral8/9/13 12:16 pm
     Positive comments insideUrban Reflex8/9/13 1:59 pm
           Re: Positive comments insidethebruce08/9/13 2:26 pm
                 Re: Positive comments insideAvateur8/10/13 12:10 am
                       Re: Positive comments insidethebruce08/12/13 10:46 am
           Re: Positive comments insideDEEP NNN8/9/13 2:56 pm
                 Re: Positive comments insidestabbim8/9/13 8:53 pm
                 Re: Positive comments insidethebruce08/12/13 10:49 am
     Speaking as a fan of Halo 4...Dervish8/9/13 2:30 pm
           Re: Speaking as a fan of Halo 4...thebruce08/12/13 10:58 am
                 Re: And by David I mean...thebruce08/12/13 11:25 am
     I am minority.Revenant19888/9/13 5:05 pm
           here here *NM*davidfuchs8/9/13 7:00 pm
           Re: I am minority.Schooly D8/9/13 7:06 pm
                 Re: I am minority.Revenant19888/9/13 7:32 pm
                       Re: I am minority.Avateur8/10/13 12:48 am
                             Re: I am minority.Revenant19888/12/13 8:26 am
           Re: I am minority.Avateur8/10/13 12:45 am
                 Re: I am minority. (pt 2)Revenant19888/12/13 9:37 am
                       Re: I am minority. (pt 2)Quirel8/12/13 8:25 pm
                       Re: I am minority. (pt 2)Avateur8/12/13 9:35 pm
           I definitely stay for the peoplepadraig088/12/13 10:26 am
                 Group hug time!LostSpartan9878/12/13 8:49 pm
           Re: I am minority.Kermit8/12/13 1:03 pm
                 Re: I am minority.Revenant19888/12/13 1:24 pm
                       Re: I am minority.Stephen L. (SoundEffect)8/12/13 2:57 pm
                 Re: I am minority.Miguel Chavez8/13/13 12:00 am
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Cody Miller8/9/13 7:34 pm
           Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Kermit8/13/13 11:54 am
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343nillapuddin8/9/13 8:26 pm
           Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Quirel8/9/13 9:09 pm
                 Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343nillapuddin8/9/13 9:39 pm
                       Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Quirel8/10/13 12:30 am
                             Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343nillapuddin8/10/13 4:45 am
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343stabbim8/9/13 9:25 pm
     My thoughts...bryan newman8/9/13 11:08 pm
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Avateur8/10/13 12:15 am
     Re: Halo 4, fans, and 343Azo 'Galvat8/10/13 1:07 am
     A challenge to the lurkers:Quirel8/10/13 2:27 am
           Re: A challenge to the lurkers:Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316)8/10/13 5:55 am
           Re: A challenge to the lurkers (and 343)thebruce08/12/13 11:41 am
     Figured it outCody Miller8/12/13 3:01 pm
           Re: Figured it outDHalo8/12/13 3:02 pm
           Johnson!scarab8/12/13 3:18 pm
                 Firefight and Orbital don't countscarab8/12/13 3:30 pm
           Elite plasma rifles! *NM*scarab8/12/13 3:19 pm
                 Reach - DOH! *NM*scarab8/12/13 3:20 pm
           Re: Figured it outCaptain Spark8/12/13 3:22 pm
           Re: Figured it outrhubarb8/12/13 4:05 pm
                 'What could have been...'rhubarb8/12/13 5:46 pm

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