: It is a Bungie fan site at the end of the day. Bungie's Halo.

: While I am happy people come here to discuss the evolving story, characters
: and direction the universe is taking under the stewardship of 343, I
: absolutely loath any discussions about MM, TU's, weapon tuning, population
: counts and other pissing contests.

: We need more of the former and less of the latter around these parts.

: The latter leads to bile. Bile turns the conversation in a direction that are
: overwhelmingly negative and unproductive.

: Want a reaction? get people talking about the things they don't like. No one
: talks about the stuff they do like. It's just seeminly easier to jump on
: the discussion band wagon that way I suppose.

: Post a thread about Elite physiology and no one bats an eye.

: Post a thread about how much 343 sucks and everybody loses their minds.

: You'll attract a member who hasn't posted anything in weeks or longer but
: will magically post in the hate thread the same thing they've posted in
: the other hate threads.

: It must really suck to be a lurker here :/

I completely agree with this assessment. I've even been on the positive side of story speculation and analysis leading up to H4 and post-H4, and no one replies. Now, could it be because I started the thread, and generally things I say about H4 are negative? Sure. Except when others like DHalo or the other thread examples you named show up, well, same exact thing.

So then the question becomes, is it the content? Do people just not care? Has 343 basically revealed and spelled out and answered all of the mysteries of the Halo universe (give or take) to the point that speculation is practically useless? Or do people really just not care or like it anymore? Or has 343 "lost" the community? Or has the community "lost 343" somehow? Maybe all of the above? Some of the above? Lots of interesting things.

: People, tastes, hobbies, and franchises change.

: You shouldn't expect to be a fan of everything just because a name is
: attached to it.

: When a franchise gets to a critical mass, there will be growing pains, and
: then restructure.

: You're feeling the change of the guard.

Presumptuous. Reach, a BUNGIE game, got ripped up. Reach.isnotcanon.net. Mega threads practically weekly utterly destroying the story via critical analysis. Threads destroying the gameplay. This and that. That and this. I feel like the tensions and hostilities during Reach were WAY worse than this period post-H4 launch. Constant strife.

: Out with the old, in with the new.

: This is nothing new. I don't know why you people make such a big deal of it.
: The community ebbs and flows.

: Have you been the rabid competitive Halo fan you identify yourself as since
: day 1? Everyday?

Hm. During H1 I primarily stuck to campaign since that was about it, but when split screen time with friends was underway, oh yeah. Now, do I play all the time constantly in super rabid competitive mode? Absolutely not. But when I flip that competitive switch on, watch out. I guess I don't see the relevance of this question, since the answer is basically, "From the moment games got serious, bragging rights were there, and buddies were around, yeah." And that goes back to H1. Does that mean I'm in rabid competitive mode 24/7? Nope.

: Have you been an HBO dude since day 1?

Didn't know it existed since day 1, but since the day 1 that I first found it, yep.

: I know I haven't. So how can I judge the population? I'd argue that around
: here, the only one who can measure the kind of change you are asking about
: is someone who's been here since HBO's inception, and the only people I
: can think of are Wu, Kermit, and Cody Miller. (apologies to anyone I miss)

Oh. Well. Sure, I guess. That's sort of narrow, but I get your point. So someone who's been around since, say, 2003 isn't as valid as someone from 1999? Even if they're still around? It's a few years removed, and when the community maybe really boomed big with H2's impending launch and Xbox Live and whatnot.

: The era of the Halo 1 lan is dead.

For the most part. It's sad. :(

: The era of the Halo 2 dudebro is dead.

Nah, they just found different dudebro games. :P

: If I asked you what your "golden era" of Halo is/was what would you
: say? From what I know or think about you schooly, I'd say Halo 2.

Does it matter if he says H2? It still predates H4 and still shows a relatively interesting drop off on peoples' perceptions of Bungie's Halo games post-H2 or even H3.

: Now, if you asked me that question I would answer " I don't know. It
: hasn't happened for me yet".

Which is still a very valid answer. For all we know, H5 will be the golden age! It was a loaded question to begin with, though, but I get why you were posing it and the point you're making.

: Perhaps that is the difference between myself and why I can say openly that
: halo 4 isn't my cup of tea, but I'm still excited and enjoying everything
: else. While I look forward all everyone else seems to be able to do is
: look back.

I seriously agree with this. Nostalgia definitely has that blinding quality to it. It's a point of comparison. How else can you really judge H4? I personally take a different approach to judging the game. The story is easy to analyze critically. I don't need to compare it to any other Halo game (though doing so really helps put it into perspective) to cut the story to pieces. It really isn't well written. The gameplay is highly repetitive (and if we do want to look back and compare, I feel like it does so many things that H3 did. And by that I mean, they were terrible in H3, and they're terrible in H4). They're terrible in general as far as I'm concerned. I can look at H4 as a stand alone and honestly say that it's filled with problems. I can point to a never ending supply of TUs and patches within the first six months to back my assessment that the game was incredibly busted. It's still all my opinion, but holy cow. And by comparison, well, H2 was pretty freaking busted, too. Why look back to the past to compare when it's clear that in its own right, H4 got mad issues.

: I don't come to HBO because of Bunige, or 343. or Halo games. I come for
: everything ELSE Halo.

Even Palmer?! Yes, making a joke. :P

: HBO is a nexus of Halo news from established and obscure places.

: I come here to see cool random Halo shit.

: I don't come here to discuss population values and weapon tweaks. Those kind
: of topics were more relevant when Bunige was the steward of Halo and came
: here because it was also a BUNGIE fan site. There was a chance they would
: see it.

: Those kinds of topics are now better served on 343's own forums IMO. they'll
: see them there. I know 343 comes to HBO because they featured the AR I was
: working on in their blog. The only place I posted that to was here and the
: 405th, so that means they came here to get it.

I don't feel they're better served on their own forums. Have you been to those forums? I've never been a fan of B.net's forums, but I'd choose them 99 out of 100 times over Waypoint's.

: It seems clear to me that 343 comes here to scan the front page and pick up
: cool Halo news. They don't come here to read these kinds of forum posts.

I doubt that. I bet they have a marketing person or something who reads this stuff and analyzes it and finds trends and so on and so forth. It's amazing what large companies do to gauge populations and opinions, especially the negative. We just never hear it or see it.

: The people that come here to lament that Halo 4 isn't what they wanted it to
: be perplex me to no end.

: It's not like things are going to magically change. It's like, why do you
: hang around at a place that clearly only causes you grief?

They have magically changed. 343 has released close to something like three trillion patches to fix things wrong in their game. They weapon tune even when not everything needs tuning. You just said you don't come here to read stuff like this, yet here you are reading it and being perplexed by it. These things do change, the game is changing, and some of the changes are just as mind boggling as some of their original decisions with this game.

Also, it doesn't cause my grief. I see things that are in dire need of fixing. A lot of those things have had fixes! Not all of those fixes should have happened, or should have happened differently.

: Maybe it's more like stalking an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend. You keep checking
: to see if they get fat or are dating someone better or worse than
: you...for what? Validation? Satisfaction? Schadenfreude?

: That kind of stuff is toxic.

: Look, you broke up. You had your good times, but you two aren't heading in
: the same direction anymore. One of you wants a change and the other
: doesn't. It's Ok. Time to move on. That doesn't mean you can't still be
: friends, wish each other well, or run into each other from time to time
: and shoot the breeze.

If the other doesn't, well, all of those patches and tunings and everything sure seem to say otherwise. H5 could potentially be made into something great. Full circle here. Golden age, am I right? Imagine if 343 takes all of this feedback and somehow releases the perfect Halo game. EVERYONE WINS at that point! 343, fans, Halo, Microsoft, Master Chief, Food Nipple Grunt.

: (Using the global "you" here)

: You might have come here for Halo but you may be surprised to find the reason
: you stay is the people you've met and friends you've made.

Maybe that is the primary reason, but also hope that maybe Halo won't suck as much in the future. Since many of us aren't burnt out on Halo and would love for Halo to not suck. Obviously my own opinion regarding suckage.

: (Using the global "you" here)

: Say what you will about 343, but the one thing Halo has never been is the
: exact same. It's always changed, always evolved . Remember when that
: tagline was important?

I remember that Bungie didn't want the "Combat Evolved" tagline and Microsoft forced it on them.

: I don't think anyone would disagree with me that 343 sure has changed a lot
: of stuff.

: And they should! The only way to get better is to try! See what sticks! See
: what fails! Learn and try again!

: You don't have to like every evolution. But just because you don't like one
: change it shouldn't mean immediately write future ones off.

I don't think that's what happened.

: Part of being a mature, balanced person is the ability to recognize why you
: don't agree with or like something but still respect others for feeling
: differently than you do. To be able to see the opinions differ and leave
: it at that.

That's a bold statement. I wouldn't have had an issue with the statement until you designated yourself someone worthy to decide what makes someone "balanced" on a fan forum where emotions can run high in support of and against certain decisions that are made regarding the thing people are fans of.

: Look, we all know this dance by now. Complainers complain. I complain about
: the complainers. People complain about me complaining about the
: complainers. Why the hell are we still dancing if no one wants to dance!?

Ironic considering you're continuing the dance. :P

: If you are trying to use HBO as some kind of barometer or.... early warning
: system in terms of the overall Halo population and community I think you
: are woefully misguided.

I just use the Xbox Live population chart, watching H4 slowly drop every time a new one comes out, and I also use H4's matchmaking population itself. That doesn't tell me about the community, but the player population is pretty hilarious.